Vinyl rules !!!!!

[AudioNut]

For the past 2-3 months, I've been absorbed with listening to CD's and SACD's and have virtually ignored my turntables and vinyl. :sorry-3:

Today, for the past several hours, I've been listening to nothing but LP's and I am totally amazed at how much better black discs, on a good turntable, sound than silver discs.

My "main" table is a Basis Debut V, with the vacuum "hold down" system, with a Graham Phantom arm and Graham Nightingale cartridge, playing through a Pass X-Ono phono stage in the "main system" as shown below.

The most obvious difference is in the soundstaging and imaging. All of a sudden, the stage has opened up in every direction. Sound appears from space many feet outside of the speakers. Truly wall to wall and then some. The stage stretches without interruption all across the front of the room. Voices appear, incredibly lifelike, from space high above the tops of the speakers. Close your eyes and the singer is in the room with you. Instrument placement is exact and correct. Some instruments appear to come from space in front of the speakers, while others seem to come from beyond the walls - deep into my back yard. This stuff is GREAT!



I am left breathless from the experience. I'm glad that I have lots of records, maybe I'll play all of them before I go back to digital. CD's are easier, you don't have to get up as often to turn them over or whatever, They take up less space, but, folks, they just don't sound as good as records.

[Still-One]

Everyone has their own opinion.

Glad you are happy.
Jim

[AudioNut]

Originally Posted by Stillone

Everyone has their own opinion.

Glad you are happy.
Jim

I am glad that my original post generated such passion among you learned listeners. I said that silver discs just don't sound as good as records, and I do stand behind my statement. Obviously, though, any statement I make is based on my own experience and my own personal tastes. I make this pronouncement based solely on my ears, my system, my listening environment and my own preferences.

JDandy said that "Perhaps if I put $15K into a turntable and arm, $4K into a cartridge, $4K into a phono preamplifier, $2K into premium interconnects, and $2K into a record cleaning machine I might hear something that would elevate my interest" - Dan, look again at my playback system. You have just about accurately priced the stuff out - the only difference is the record cleaning machine - I only have a VPI HW-17 which actually costs $700 less than your estimate. - - -

Dan, try it, you might like it! You certainly have the best of everything else audio, and you are certainly one of the most gifted listeners and explainers I've encountered.

What I am saying is that I do have a very good turntable, arm, cartridge, phono stage, cables etc. and, yes, I am certain that it does play vinyl better than some of the analogue equipment that I see listed by others. At the same time, some of the digital players that I have seen listed in this forum will no doubt blow mine away. (Although my heavily modified Esoteric X-03 ain't nothing to sneeze about)

My speakers, (I'm currently using my Avalon Eidolons) are well known for their superior soundstaging. I have seen them described many times as offering wall to wall sound - and this is very true - They are capable of a soundstage that approaches 270 degrees - a little shy of surround but not too bad for two channel. At the same time, they are not "world class" in their ability to portray dynamic range (although they aren't too bad)

Their soundstage, however, is largely dependent on source components. I've had the Eidolons for about 8 years and have never experienced anything that comes close to what I experience with my turntable and vinyl records. CD's and SACD's sound really great, but they do not ever give me that dimensionality. They do provide three dimensional sound but without the extra-wide, extra deep, soundstage that records give me.

In my original statement, the only attributes that I expressed as absolutes were relative to imaging and soundstaging. I didn't say anything about dynamic range, RIAA equalization, frequency response or anything else - just imaging and soundstaging. I will now add retrieval of ambience - and you audio experts will know exactly what I am talking about. Records just seem to add that extra dimension that, in my experience, cd's just don't deliver. (I'm absolutely certain that someone will tell me that my "ambient sound" is tape hiss or groove noise - but that is totally poop!)

While I feel that my records and turntable present perfectly fine dynamic range, tonality, frequency response, etc. etc. I was judging the fantastic quality of the width, depth and height of the music that I was listening to.

In this context, in my home, in my listening room, on my equipment, Records sound better than CD's/SACD's.

I'm glad that others are able to provide graphs and charts to prove whatever they want to prove, but as for me. I can only relate what my ears tell me.

I seem to recall that in earlier years, Stereo Review, High Fidelity, and others of their ilk, claimed that everything sounded just about alike because their numbers and specifications proved it, while Harry Pearson, and others of his persuasion, relied solely on their listening perceptions, and, yes, their opinions.

Who was right? I'm in the Harry Pearson camp. Never in my 50 years of listening have I bought any audio component because of its measurements. Everything I have ever bought was based on how it sounded to me or how it sounded to someone I trusted.

Is everyone entitled to their own opinions? You bet! I surely have my opinions, and most of what I do is based on those opinions (unless they contradict my wife's opinions, but that is another story).

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by jprice

I am glad that my original post generated such passion among you learned listeners. I said that silver discs just don't sound as good as records, and I do stand behind my statement. Obviously, though, any statement I make is based on my own experience and my own personal tastes. I make this pronouncement based solely on my ears, my system, my listening environment and my own preferences.

JDandy said that "Perhaps if I put $15K into a turntable and arm, $4K into a cartridge, $4K into a phono preamplifier, $2K into premium interconnects, and $2K into a record cleaning machine I might hear something that would elevate my interest" - Dan, look again at my playback system. You have just about accurately priced the stuff out - the only difference is the record cleaning machine - I only have a VPI HW-17 which actually costs $700 less than your estimate. - - -

Dan, try it, you might like it! You certainly have the best of everything else audio, and you are certainly one of the most gifted listeners and explainers I've encountered.

What I am saying is that I do have a very good turntable, arm, cartridge, phono stage, cables etc. and, yes, I am certain that it does play vinyl better than some of the analogue equipment that I see listed by others. At the same time, some of the digital players that I have seen listed in this forum will no doubt blow mine away. (Although my heavily modified Esoteric X-03 ain't nothing to sneeze about)

My speakers, (I'm currently using my Avalon Eidolons) are well known for their superior soundstaging. I have seen them described many times as offering wall to wall sound - and this is very true - They are capable of a soundstage that approaches 270 degrees - a little shy of surround but not too bad for two channel. At the same time, they are not "world class" in their ability to portray dynamic range (although they aren't too bad)

Their soundstage, however, is largely dependent on source components. I've had the Eidolons for about 8 years and have never experienced anything that comes close to what I experience with my turntable and vinyl records. CD's and SACD's sound really great, but they do not ever give me that dimensionality. They do provide three dimensional sound but without the extra-wide, extra deep, soundstage that records give me.

In my original statement, the only attributes that I expressed as absolutes were relative to imaging and soundstaging. I didn't say anything about dynamic range, RIAA equalization, frequency response or anything else - just imaging and soundstaging. I will now add retrieval of ambience - and you audio experts will know exactly what I am talking about. Records just seem to add that extra dimension that, in my experience, cd's just don't deliver. (I'm absolutely certain that someone will tell me that my "ambient sound" is tape hiss or groove noise - but that is totally poop!)

While I feel that my records and turntable present perfectly fine dynamic range, tonality, frequency response, etc. etc. I was judging the fantastic quality of the width, depth and height of the music that I was listening to.

In this context, in my home, in my listening room, on my equipment, Records sound better than CD's/SACD's.

I'm glad that others are able to provide graphs and charts to prove whatever they want to prove, but as for me. I can only relate what my ears tell me.

I seem to recall that in earlier years, Stereo Review, High Fidelity, and others of their ilk, claimed that everything sounded just about alike because their numbers and specifications proved it, while Harry Pearson, and others of his persuasion, relied solely on their listening perceptions, and, yes, their opinions.

Who was right? I'm in the Harry Pearson camp. Never in my 50 years of listening have I bought any audio component because of its measurements. Everything I have ever bought was based on how it sounded to me or how it sounded to someone I trusted.

Is everyone entitled to their own opinions? You bet! I surely have my opinions, and most of what I do is based on those opinions (unless they contradict my wife's opinions, but that is another story). I do think some folks could be a little more tolerant of other people's opinions and not be rude in the way they respond to them, but then I am a good old southern boy and we are a little more gentle in the way we treat folks.

I had the pleasure of auditioning the Avalon Eidolons a few times with different gear including the same Lamm M1.2 amplifiers I am using right now. I've also heard a great deal of Spectral gear over the years which I presume you are pairing with the Eidolons? I agree with your assessment of their virtues. There is no doubt in my mind you are more than capable of extracting every last ounce of performance from your front ends from this combination, which is no doubt among the handful of gear out there that is the pinnacle of what high end playback is about. Therefore, I also agree with your findings in terms of vinyl vs digital since this is precisely what I hear in my own system as well as many other top notch systems I have heard in the past. What does surprise me is just how good my rather humble vinyl rig sounds and that it is able to give the CDs a run for the money all across the board and exceeds in some parameters.

[Uberbrown]

Originally Posted by jprice

I said that silver discs just don't sound as good as records, and I do stand behind my statement. Obviously, though, any statement I make is based on my own experience and my own personal tastes. I make this pronouncement based solely on my ears, my system, my listening environment and my own preferences.

I agree. Heard 2 lp setups in my life.

1) MT10 with "dream system" and the MP10 IMHO had a more natural sound than the MDA 1k.

2) VPI scout with ARC integrated.

Both sounded more natural to me, less glitz, more real than their digital counterparts.

[vintage_tube]

Originally Posted by Uberbrown

I agree. Heard 2 lp setups in my life.

1) MP10 with "dream system" and the MP10 IMHO had a more natural sound than the MDA 1k.

Did you mean the MT10??

Bob

[Uberbrown]

Originally Posted by vintage_tube

Did you mean the MT10??

Bob

Bob,

Fixed.

Tim

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by Stillone

Everyone has their own opinion.

Glad you are happy.
Jim

Last evening I came across this letter in the Feedback column in the March issue of MacWorld.
Here's another addition to your list: Don't assume we all know that you are joking, being facetious, or asking a rhetorical question. Without those sily smiley faces and wink-winks, you're not a comedian your a buffoon.

So this may help to put my original response in the way it was intended.

********************************
Everyone has their own opinion.

Glad you are happy.
Jim
********************************

That part is now closed.


Now just to be clear so that everyone knows where I am coming from when I post.
1) I do not own the best set-up in the world.
2) Neither do you.
3) There is no best speaker (or company) or best amplifier (or company) etc.
4) If there actually is a best product out there, someone will improve upon it by next week.
5) The "huge" change we attribute to every change in gear, when all added up, exceeds the sound that comes out in the end.
6) I do not say that digital is better than vinyl. I believe that vinyl is not inherently better than digital as some profess.
7) Because you or I prefer the sound of Product A that does not make it better than Product B.
8) Most people should try different music, because it seems they/we buy what makes their system sound good.
9) I believe in "Break-In Time". I also believe that we get used to the sound of our own systems and our mind masks any faults/nuances after a period of time. That is why we are encouraged to "Keep it for 30 days", or "it takes 300 hours to break-in".
10) At the price points we are talking here, there is no bad gear our there. It is all a matter individual preferences and what you are seeking to hear and look at.
11) Listening to someone else's system can be eye opening because: a) it sounds so different from your own that your initial impression is WOW b) it sounds so different from your own that you have to force a smile. c) when you go home and listen to your own system you will go WOW, and forget whether you heard A or B above.

I will stop here because I could go on............

Jim

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by Stillone

1) I do not own the best set-up in the world.
2) Neither do you.
3) There is no best speaker (or company) or best amplifier (or company) etc.
4) If there actually is a best product out there, someone will improve upon it by next week.
5) The "huge" change we attribute to every change in gear, when all added up, exceeds the sound that comes out in the end.
6) I do not say that digital is better than vinyl. I believe that vinyl is not inherently better than digital as some profess.
7) Because you or I prefer the sound of Product A that does not make it better than Product B.
8) Most people should try different music, because it seems they/we buy what makes their system sound good.
9) I believe in "Break-In Time". I also believe that we get used to the sound of our own systems and our mind masks any faults/nuances after a period of time. That is why we are encouraged to "Keep it for 30 days", or "it takes 300 hours to break-in".
10) At the price points we are talking here, there is no bad gear our there. It is all a matter individual preferences and what you are seeking to hear and look at.
11) Listening to someone else's system can be eye opening because: a) it sounds so different from your own that your initial impression is WOW b) it sounds so different from your own that you have to force a smile. c) when you go home and listen to your own system you will go WOW, and forget whether you heard A or B above.

I will stop here because I could go on............

Jim

a "HUGE" + 1 on all these points !!

Jérôme

[two dot]

Jim,

All excellent points.

As I said in another thread, at the level of each and every one of our systems, it is just like we all have the best ice cream made... just different flavors.

There certainly is no best of anything... not these days.

Thanks for your valuable contribution here.