AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Audio & Video > Headphones, Personal Listening Gear

Headphones, Personal Listening Gear Personal Listening at its Best

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-06-2017, 02:51 AM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pa
Posts: 23,609
Default Balanced Headphone Amplifiers

Everything you probably want to know about balanced headphones and amplifiers.

http://violectric-usa.com/download/B...0Explained.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-06-2017, 06:39 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pa
Posts: 23,609
Default

Some further reading on balanced. This may be a bit easier of a read. https://www.headphone.com/pages/bala...adphones-guide
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:58 PM
W9TR's Avatar
W9TR W9TR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Neutral Zone
Posts: 4,665
Default Hmmm

....and here comes captain bringdown

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/app...uts-are-better
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:58 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pa
Posts: 23,609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
....and here comes captain bringdown

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/app...uts-are-better
What I did not like about that article from Benchmark is too many assumptions of making the "worst case scenario" that the fully balanced headphone amplifiers are necessarily worse because of higher output impedance, more noise and distortion because of dual amplification per channel. While it is true that "some" not so well engineered examples could be indeed worse, there are plenty of examples of a well designed, fully balanced products that deliver. I've seen plenty of balanced headphone amplifiers that are very low output impedance and are not noisy by any stretch of imagination. It is Benchmark's choice to offer SE and not balanced and that's their business but making worst case scenario assumptions is not fair to other designers who believe they can make a great balanced design and actually are successful at it. My Bryston BHA-1 offers both SE and Balanced as a choice to the end user. I like that.

Whether balanced in headphone use is actually necessary or not is still a very much debatable subject but there is one fact that remains pretty obvious, not all headphone amps are created equal and not all of them drive various headphones to perfection.

I've come across designers who believe that balanced circuitry does not belong on high end audio period (not even talking about headphones here) and that single ended sounds clearly better because balanced circuitry introduced extra circuitry and op amps, etc... Yes, the gear sounded great in single ended if you were lucky enough to get away with all single ended in your rack and not have noise. At the same time, we all know that's not a fact but an opinion of that particular designer and there are plenty of high end audio products that also sound great while implementing balanced connections between components.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:00 PM
Puma Cat's Avatar
Puma Cat Puma Cat is online now
Cool, calm scientist

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 10,915
Default

One word....Mjolnir.

__________________
Lumin P1 streamer/DAC/preamp, Constellation Inspiration integrated TT: Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, EAR324. Harbeth 30.2s, REL R-305, Shunyata Alpha V2 ICs, Alpha V2 SPs, Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Omega QR-s & Alpha NRv2 PCs, segmented Altaira SG stack w/ Alpha & Omega CGCs, Everest 8000 PD. Remote Server Room: Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark Master Clock & LPS, Alita, Battle Angel, (Akasa NUC Roon Core), iFi DC Purifiers (for SMPS used for Alita & router), Shunyata Gemini combo power distributor & Altaira-type CG GP-NR hub, Venom & Alpha CGCs, Shunyata NRv14 power cords for digital components.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:23 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pa
Posts: 23,609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
One word....Mjolnir.

Also on my radar Stephen. One headphone amp does not exclude the other. I like the 6SN7 tube in general from previous experience.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:28 PM
W9TR's Avatar
W9TR W9TR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Neutral Zone
Posts: 4,665
Default Balanced Headphone Amplifiers

Yep - the Benchmark white paper misses a lot of critical points. I don't agree with most of it. But I also think he makes some good points.

The best sound I've ever heard from headphones was a balanced DAC into a fully balanced headphone amp.

So let me unpack this.

Headphones are balanced by nature - TRUE. They don't know if they are being driven by a single ended or balanced amp.

Having a common return will cause some crosstalk. TRUE.

So run a 4 wire system from the amp to the phones and then it's macht nicht.

What Siau misses is that having a truly balanced amplifier driving the 'phones will cancel out the distortion in the two identical amps that are driving the 'phones differentially. Done correctly, balanced drive dramatically reduces distortion.

Siau's claim that the noise goes up with balanced is specious and without merit.

The signal voltage doubles, but the uncorrelated noise does not, so the S/N actually improves by 3 dB.

Balanced reduces noise induced in the cables - FALSE. Since the headphones themselves are balanced, there is no difference between balanced and unbalanced cables. Any induced noise will be cancelled at the drivers.

Am I stirring the pot? You decide. But I don't have any economic interest in the discussion, whereas the authors of all articles posted so far definitely do.
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v

Last edited by W9TR; 11-06-2017 at 11:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:07 AM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pa
Posts: 23,609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
Am I stirring the pot? You decide. But I don't have any economic interest in the discussion, whereas all the articles posted so far definitely do.
Well you are probably referring to the original article in my first post by Violectric? So then we should of course compare side by side with Benchmark?

One is a dedicated headphone amp, the other is a DAC with a headphone out?

Benchmark chose to package their product as a DAC to include a SE headphone out.

Violectric decided to do a balls to the wall headphone amp with both SE and Balanced and a DAC module if needed or wanted.

Both products over $2k. So probably will be used with rather serious headphones?

Right... Let's take an Audeze just as an example.

Audeze LCD-4 requires 1-4W and is 200 ohm impedance.

Benchmark puts out 1.2w into 30 ohms and much less into 200.

Violectric puts out 2.8w into 32 ohms, 4.2W into 50 ohms and whopping 5.6W into 100 ohms.

Violectric V281 also specs out at

Crosstalk:
-105 dB (1 kHz) / -103 dB (15 kHz)

Output impedance:
< 0.1 Ohm unbal. / < 0.2 Ohm bal

Dynamic range:
> 129 dB (A-wtd)

Noise:
< -95 dBu (A-wtd)


I'd say with specs like that Violectric is a serious BALANCED headphone amp. What was Benchmark saying again?

Last edited by PHC1; 11-07-2017 at 12:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:28 AM
W9TR's Avatar
W9TR W9TR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Neutral Zone
Posts: 4,665
Default

So yep, I have a Benchmark HGC3. What their specs say is that I will have to buy a dedicated headphone amp because they don't have the juice to drive the 200 ohm LCD-4's that I just bought!

All the balanced/unbalanced stuff doesn't matter if you don't have the juice!
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:35 AM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pa
Posts: 23,609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
So yep, I have a Benchmark HGC3. What their specs say is that I will have to buy a dedicated headphone amp because they don't have the juice to drive the 200 ohm LCD-4's that I just bought!

All the balanced/unbalanced stuff doesn't matter if you don't have the juice!
It will drive it just fine. No balanced cable upgrade to worry about either!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:23 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video