Audio research vs mcintosh...preamp smackdown

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by MyPal

+1. C1000T too.

Amen!

[Lunchy]

Originally Posted by jdandy

I'll take my McIntosh C1000C/P preamplifier over an ARC REF-of-the-month preamp any day.

I'd love to hear this preamp (as well as the C500), but I just don't have anyone around here that has either.

[2fastdriving]

Didn't Dan say that the C2300 is very, very close to the C1000? So much in fact, he ditched the C1000 and kept a C2300? I seem to remember something said about that.

I think that it comes down to matters of taste. I am not bashing the C2300 by any means, but the ARC has a completely different presentation. The C2300 seems to have a tighter grip on bass and a more narrow soundstage, while the ARC Ref5 has a very wide soundstage but looser bass control. In fact, I am not sure I love the way ARC plays hard rock with lots of fast bass. But when I play acoustic tracks with female singers, the ARC is incredibly lifelike and compelling.

They might both be great, but it comes down to what you are trying to accomplish and what your tastes are.

Since I have tons of Jewel and Rage Against The Machine, I'm screwed

[Lunchy]

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

Didn't Dan say that the C2300 is very, very close to the C1000? So much in fact, he ditched the C1000 and kept a C2300? I seem to remember something said about that.

I think that it comes down to matters of taste. I am not bashing the C2300 by any means, but the ARC has a completely different presentation. The C2300 seems to have a tighter grip on bass and a more narrow soundstage, while the ARC Ref5 has a very wide soundstage but looser bass control. In fact, I am not sure I love the way ARC plays hard rock with lots of fast bass. But when I play acoustic tracks with female singers, the ARC is incredibly lifelike and compelling.

They might both be great, but it comes down to what you are trying to accomplish and what your tastes are.

Since I have tons of Jewel and Rage Against The Machine, I'm screwed

This is an interesting observation about the bass because it's very much the opposite of what I found. Once I got the ARC pre it was as if the bass components of the song were now their own instruments instead of being somehow lumped into everything else. This makes me want to try the C2300 again...

[Lunchy]

Originally Posted by jdandy

I'll take my McIntosh C1000C/P preamplifier over an ARC REF-of-the-month preamp any day.

BTW Dan, have you had a chance to audition an ARC Ref preamp in your system? It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts and comparisons. Too bad you don't live closer, I 'd be happy to lend you mine, but that's a bit further than I'm comfortable shipping if I don't have to...

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

Didn't Dan say that the C2300 is very, very close to the C1000? So much in fact, he ditched the C1000 and kept a C2300? I seem to remember something said about that.

I think that it comes down to matters of taste. I am not bashing the C2300 by any means, but the ARC has a completely different presentation. The C2300 seems to have a tighter grip on bass and a more narrow soundstage, while the ARC Ref5 has a very wide soundstage but looser bass control. In fact, I am not sure I love the way ARC plays hard rock with lots of fast bass. But when I play acoustic tracks with female singers, the ARC is incredibly lifelike and compelling.

They might both be great, but it comes down to what you are trying to accomplish and what your tastes are.

Since I have tons of Jewel and Rage Against The Machine, I'm screwed

Marc.......Just to keep the record straight I said that I don't feel I gave up much when I replaced the C1000C/T (tube preamp) with the C2300. I actually went from a C2300 to the C1000C/T, then purchased another C2300 to replace the C1000C/T due to space constraint in my rack. I wanted to return to a one box preamplifier in my living room system. I never said anything that even remotely hinted the C2300 is a carbon copy of the C1000C/T. The C2300 sounds very good, its control features and build quality are on par with the C1000 series preamps, and it's performance is not that far away from its big brothers, but it is not one and the same. What I have said and still fully support is that between the C1000C/T and the C1000C/P the solid state C1000C/P version of McIntosh's premier preamplifier is the best of the two versions for me.

Like all audio gear, there is a huge benefit when mating the proper components, using complimentary cabling, high quality power conditioning and premium speakers. It's all about the interaction or cooperation of two or more components and parts to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects. Synergy. Without full disclosure in a conversation of all components and ancillary parts it all boils down to being a petri dish discussion where anything can grow under varying conditions.

Tubes play a tremendous part influencing the sound of components that use them in the circuits. Unless you've taken the time to roll plenty of different manufacturer's tubes through any component that uses them you don't really have a clear and complete picture of what a particular audio component is capable of delivering. The McIntosh C2300 is highly resolving and easily offers a listener the ability to hear how different tubes impact its performance. Some tubes deliver fantastic results, some good, and some not so good. Every single link in an audio chain impacts the final results. There is no getting around that.

One of the aspects I enjoy about our hobby, beside the pure joy of listening to music on high quality gear, is engaging in these types of discussions about gear performance and sound. It inevitably reaches the same conclusion every time. Each of us hears with our own ears and no two of us hear exactly the same. Furthermore, sound is a highly subjective topic with no solid facts on what is the best sound and what isn't. If we disagree about sound quality it is simply the nature of the subject we are all so passionate about. Other heavy influences on the quality of what we hear include the rooms we listen in and the quality of the source. Those are full blown discussion by themselves.

[2fastdriving]

Great post, Dan. Thanks for clarifying. I do love my C2300, just trying to figure out what the next step on my roadmap is.

Any thoughts on my observation that bass attacks seem sharper and stronger with McIntosh than ARC? But the soundstage is smaller? Have you experienced those kinds of differences between these brands? I wonder what other people hear. Every time I hear ARC, I feel like the mids are the most glorious thing ever, but something is missing from the bottom end. hmmm.

[jdandy]

Marc.......I have been drawn to ARC gear for many years. It is one of America's premier audio brands. I have auditioned a number of ARC components but never had the ARC sound capture my heart. I love the quasi-industrial look but never pulled out my checkbook to bring ARC home. I still like ARC and perhaps I should make a trip to Stereotypes in Daytona Beach to audition some of their newest offerings. They carry McIntosh and ARC.

Regarding your comment about the bass performance differences between the C2300 and the ARC preamp, I honestly don't have a clue. Bass performance is as much a part of proper speaker setup in a room as it is the preamp and amplifiers connected to the speakers. There are so many variables that impact good bass performance. The room always plays into bass performance. Standing waves can destroy good bass performance. Good bass doesn't just happen. In my experience it takes a bit of work to dial it in.

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by Lunchy

BTW Dan, have you had a chance to audition an ARC Ref preamp in your system? It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts and comparisons. Too bad you don't live closer, I 'd be happy to lend you mine, but that's a bit further than I'm comfortable shipping if I don't have to...

Casey.......I am so happy with the total performance on my studio two channel system that I can't imagine changing any part of it. The sound is everything I have ever wanted a system to be on all levels. I'm a firm believer - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[jbaudio68]

The mids on the 5SE are special. That being said, I just sold my 5SE and bought a 2500. I don't feel like I'm missing much --if anything-- and if the bass is low, I just add a couple of db plenty of sound stage here! Both are good pres... The 5SE may have an edge... (It should for the extra dough). I just did not have a good experience mixing mc with ARC and was left feeling that ARC pres should match with ARC amps and mc should match with mc.