Anaconda full loom finally at hand

[calcutroop]

I read the explanations of BlueFox and I thank you but I have to disagree with your point of view regarding the famous loom. The only winner with that theory of the Loom is the manufacturer wise enough to attract your first attention. The weak part of the loom is that a manufacturer cannot be the best in all kind of cables. I trust Shunyata for power cords, hoping that it is not another antenna for EMI, but I am open minded to listen to other brands when it is time for ic or phono cables, different materials, etc... For example, I do like silver for ic and Shunyata doesn't have any silver cable and I can't help myself thinking that it would be impossible to offer such a cable with their already far expensive copper cables.
As far as the Triton or Typhon is concerned, I didn't get a answer based on facts and not on marketing, but then again, thank you.

[GrantS]

Originally Posted by calcutroop

Really don't want to start a war and I own many Shunyata power cords but I cannot understand the magnitude of improvement that some owners attribute to the cables alone and specially on Triton Typhon where the only mystery seems to reside in zero parts. No schema no graph, no parts.
Someone able to explain to me the benefits of :
1. a loom;
2. what is in a Triton, typhon that will upgrade a piece of equipment.

Ok. I'll try to answer, but from reading your post, the question is framed in a disingenuous way. I'm not sure there will be an answer that will satisfy you if you haven't taken time to read or view the massive amount of information on our web, or posted elsewhere here.

If you have not looked at any of the parts information; the videos, measurements or published patents, then its difficult to find a beginning point to answer such a broad assumption and question.

To take the question in its simplest form, the answer is that the Triton/Typhon improve systems by #1. Minimizing the electrical impedance that would normally exist between a system of electronics connected through almost any conventional power conditioner, and the wall. More specifically, we design and measure every custom part and process we use to reduce resistance to DTCD (Dynamic Transient Current Delivery). #2. Many of our products -- even some of the power cord models, measurably reduce high-frequency noise (CCI) -- without adding what we consider to be harmful reactance or resistance to the electrical signal.

The information about parts, measurements (graphs), patents and technology is all well documented on our web or with a simple patent search. By "no parts", is this supposed to mean active parts, like transformers, chokes, coils or regenerators? Our design perspective views these approaches as carrying strong negatives that rule them out from consideration.

If you literally mean "no parts", that is a very poorly informed comment. The Triton and Typhon are entirely created from custom-designed and manufactured parts. There are more published explanations, measurements and general information about our POV than on any similar product I've seen. This is presented in a technical, non-marketed way. There are many videos detailing these topics posted on our web as well.

I could illuminate a list, but again, that would be redundant to what we've published. Suffice it to say, all the parts in each of these products are of our own making and they serve the purposes of measurably improving Dynamic Transient Current Delivery (Instantaneous current) or measurably reducing noise -- CCI (Component To Component Interference).

There is a US Patent granted on the NIC Chambers used in the Typhon and Triton-- those are "parts", right? The buss systems are of our own design. The filter networks are of our own design. The outlets are our own. Even the Carling breaker was modified and custom manufactured to our spec.

There are internal photo's posted on both units on the web. We have multiple video's on our web detailing the parts and the measurements as well as white papers on the design perspective that lies behind our parts designs and choices. Did you take the time to view any of these? If so, ask specific, informed questions and we'd be happy to answer them.

Regarding "looms"...

The benefits of following any signal throughput from a single manufacturer, whether in power, signal or with electronics, comes from following a technology that makes sense from a technical perspective or is measurable, to gain an end result that either measures better, or is demonstrably lower in noise or better in overall performance. "Silver" is just a metal type. In our testing, the type of wire used doesn't matter nearly as much as the treatments or technology used. This is especially true with signal wire.

Caelin or I have explained our measurable technologies, parts, patents and design choices many times to accredited engineers, studios and electronics engineers that can understand how and why we design the way we do. Pink Floyd's Engineers, Rick Rubin's, SkyWalker. Those are smart people and they can ask difficult to answer questions. No one's asked an intelligent question here that wasn't answered in a forthright way.

Our threads here on AA are jammed with technical information about our products. If you take the time to read some of these more technical threads or review the measurements and technical information on our web and disagree, or don't understand something, we'll answer any and all specific questions related to parts lists, measurements, technologies etc.

The reasons behind the performance of our products are clearly articulated in our patents, measurements and custom parts lists. They should go a long way to explaining why they make a difference within systems.

I hope this is of some help.

Grant
Shunyata Research

[DMelby]

Originally Posted by calcutroop

I read the explanations of BlueFox and I thank you but I have to disagree with your point of view regarding the famous loom. The only winner with that theory of the Loom is the manufacturer wise enough to attract your first attention. The weak part of the loom is that a manufacturer cannot be the best in all kind of cables. I trust Shunyata for power cords, hoping that it is not another antenna for EMI, but I am open minded to listen to other brands when it is time for ic or phono cables, different materials, etc... For example, I do like silver for ic and Shunyata doesn't have any silver cable and I can't help myself thinking that it would be impossible to offer such a cable with their already far expensive copper cables.
As far as the Triton or Typhon is concerned, I didn't get a answer based on facts and not on marketing, but then again, thank you.

To keep things on a positive note - a great feature of this site , this is a good point that considering all kinds of manufacturers is important to all in this wonderful hobby. That's a very reasonable point of view.
I like my experience with Shunyata both from a power cord perspective and IC too. I've very much experienced that if I purchase a Shunyata cable of any variety I will hear an audible improvement. They have been very reliable, so far anyways, with not letting me or my hard earned money down. After 15 years in this hobby there are few companies I found I could trust through the years. After working with Shunyata products, I finally came to realize that I can trust Shunyata to actually deliver on the performance improvements they suggest. Unlike other companies unfortunately. It became a much less stressful proposition, then, knowing that I could purchase a Shunyata cable and know it will deliver, and each price point delivered greater returns. Before, with all the unknowns and different companies out there it was not as enjoyable. Before I would purchase and auditioning cable after cable until I found a good one. I settled on Shunyata because they delivered in a reproducible way over the course of more than 15 different power cable, IC, and power conditioner purchases.
Now this is not to say they are the best products in existence for every application. That's a pretty tall order for any company. But in my experience they are the best I have heard, but I have much yet to hear admittedly.
Its just nice to have a reliable company these days that I can count on

[Glisse]

Originally Posted by lem321

Happy NY guys,

I recently acquired a Cyclops and will be adding a Shunyata Alpha HC umbilical. Will also be using Alpha HC's for my two ARC REF 250's. What length are you guys using for the Cyclops to wall connection - standard 1.75m or shorter? I recall reading a quote from Caelin somewhere that the Cyclops umbilical should be custom-sized although the exact length was not mentioned. I know the Typhon now comes with a dedicated (shorter) AHC umbilical.

Similar question about the Triton: what length umbilical are you all using, Triton to wall?

Thanks in advance for any information you may have.

I use a standard length Alpha HC into my Cyclops. Never read any comment that the Cyclops (or Triton) require a custom size cable. Umbilical is only for the Typhon, and short (I presume) to minimise any EMI/RFI pollution impacting on the Typhon feed.

[calcutroop]

To Mr Grants,

If my question seems «disingenuous», probably that the main reason is that I don't speak (or write) english as a first or a main language, I am french canadian (nobody's perfect).
As I wrote in my first comment, I own many powecords from your company and I am satisfied with those (5 as a total). After more than 40 years in this hobby, I am still open minded but at the same the time a bit sceptical on the «jaw dropping difference» or about «the huge difference» between two IC,s. My comments are not written to embarrassed or to be negative, just ask question. I will take a look to your videos.
Have a great weekend.

[Glisse]

Originally Posted by calcutroop

To Mr Grants,

If my question seems «disingenuous», probably that the main reason is that I don't speak (or write) english as a first or a main language, I am french canadian (nobody's perfect).
As I wrote in my first comment, I own many powecords from your company and I am satisfied with those (5 as a total). After more than 40 years in this hobby, I am still open minded but at the same the time a bit sceptical on the «jaw dropping difference» or about «the huge difference» between two IC,s. My comments are not written to embarrassed or to be negative, just ask question. I will take a look to your videos.
Have a great weekend.

I think after 40 years, and being open minded, you would already know that there is no "best". Just the best fit for your own system, ears, and budget.

And all we can do here is talk of our own experiences, and what we found worked, or did not, in our own systems. Your question wasn't being asked in a way that can deliver an answer that would be of much use to you.

For anyone to provide you with an objective "fact" that what they may hear is what you would also hear is nonsensical. As it is to assume that just because you may never have heard a profound difference between ICs or power conditioners must mean that others have not either.

There are simply too many variables in equipment, AC quality, external interference, and not least by how we subjectively hear. And hearing is ultimately a completely subjective sense: one that cannot be replicated by microphones, software, and graphs.

My experience is that a loom offers the potential of consistent performance. Mixing and matching brands is a bit like playing the lottery, and this applies to components and cables.

But I do not think your point of view is wrong. I have a couple of components which seem to prefer being used with silver cables. Grant and Caelin have commented that Shunyata have tested silver and found it provided no benefit over copper (their grade of cryogenically treated copper). I am sure that is correct, but that applies to Shunyata's cable construction and also to the reference systems they use. By contrast, to my mind Audioquest cannot get close to matching the performance of their silver cables with their copper versions. The performance of Siltech/Crystal cables is dominated by their materials science. So what works in one recipe may not work in another.

In the couple of components that prefer silver, one being Burmester and the other Linn, both manufacturers sell silver cables: made to their specifications by third parties, I suspect. I should add that both Shunyata Aries Aurora and Shunyata Z-Anaconda ICs perform better than the manufacturer cables, as I own them all. But I do get even better performance here from AQ Wild Blue Yonder silver IC - particularly in terms of bass weight and definition.

But, and let me emphasise in the universal language of size, BUT changing one cable can be an interactive process. In my Burmester system, I have recently started to deploy Sigma power cables. I now start to hear better performance from Alpha series power cables used in conjunction with Sigma, whereas before I always preferred Z-Anaconda/Python cables without an Alpha in the mix. I now start to hear better relative performance from the Z-Python speaker cables vs the Aries Aurora, same for Z-Anaconda IC vs Aries Aurora IC and the AQ Wild IC.

So I am hearing a "loom benefit" within Shunyata's own product ranges, let alone using a different brand.

In terms of power conditioners, I do not have Triton or Typhon, but do have a Hydra AV and Cyclops, and am very happy with them both. For me, the improvements were incremental: a lower noise floor which provides cleaner top end, more depth to the soundstage, better definition of low level harmonic decays, etc.

Are they the "best" option in every possible situation? Not in my experience. In my Burmester system, the Burmester 948 is a better fit. It seems in particular my Burmester 088 preamp needs the 948 to function at optimum levels. Perhaps because the 948, which is a completely different design of power conditioner, also removes DC from the AC circuit.

Yet in my other system, where I use the Hydra AV in one, and the Cyclops in another, they are much better than the Burmester in reducing the noise floor.

And since I have started moving to Sigma power cables (I now have 3) in my "big" system, the Hydra AV has drawn very close to giving me the same degree of performance as I am getting from the Burmester 948. My experience is that the Sigma cables are reducing the role of the power conditioner.

Most of my "jaw dropping" moments have come from Shunyata power cables to components. Followed a fair way behind by the power conditioner, then the wall socket, then the power cable from wall to power conditioner, then the speaker cable, then the IC cables. But that's just me.

When I have these (rare) jaw dropping moments, it was clear to me that I had some sort of roadblock in the system. Getting rid of it can cause a significant drop in the noise floor of the system. Either through better impedance matching or reduction of major electrical interference. This sort of system noise is insidious - you cannot hear it while it is there, only when you reduce it. But it always masks differences between components and cables to some extent.

In my subjective view

[cmarin]

Originally Posted by Glisse

I think after 40 years, and being open minded, you would already know that there is no "best". Just the best fit for your own system, ears, and budget. And all we can do here is talk of our own experiences, and what we found worked, or did not, in our own systems. Your question wasn't being asked in a way that can deliver an answer that would be of much use to you. For anyone to provide you with an objective "fact" that what they may hear is what you would also hear is nonsensical. As it is to assume that just because you may never have heard a profound difference between ICs or power conditioners must mean that others have not either. There are simply too many variables in equipment, AC quality, external interference, and not least by how we subjectively hear. And hearing is ultimately a completely subjective sense: one that cannot be replicated by microphones, software, and graphs. My experience is that a loom offers the potential of consistent performance. Mixing and matching brands is a bit like playing the lottery, and this applies to components and cables. But I do not think your point of view is wrong. I have a couple of components which seem to prefer being used with silver cables. Grant and Caelin have commented that Shunyata have tested silver and found it provided no benefit over copper (their grade of cryogenically treated copper). I am sure that is correct, but that applies to Shunyata's cable construction and also to the reference systems they use. By contrast, to my mind Audioquest cannot get close to matching the performance of their silver cables with their copper versions. The performance of Siltech/Crystal cables is dominated by their materials science. So what works in one recipe may not work in another. In the couple of components that prefer silver, one being Burmester and the other Linn, both manufacturers sell silver cables: made to their specifications by third parties, I suspect. I should add that both Shunyata Aries Aurora and Shunyata Z-Anaconda ICs perform better than the manufacturer cables, as I own them all. But I do get even better performance here from AQ Wild Blue Yonder silver IC - particularly in terms of bass weight and definition. But, and let me emphasise in the universal language of size, BUT changing one cable can be an interactive process. In my Burmester system, I have recently started to deploy Sigma power cables. I now start to hear better performance from Alpha series power cables used in conjunction with Sigma, whereas before I always preferred Z-Anaconda/Python cables without an Alpha in the mix. I now start to hear better relative performance from the Z-Python speaker cables vs the Aries Aurora, same for Z-Anaconda IC vs Aries Aurora IC and the AQ Wild IC. So I am hearing a "loom benefit" within Shunyata's own product ranges, let alone using a different brand. In terms of power conditioners, I do not have Triton or Typhon, but do have a Hydra AV and Cyclops, and am very happy with them both. For me, the improvements were incremental: a lower noise floor which provides cleaner top end, more depth to the soundstage, better definition of low level harmonic decays, etc. Are they the "best" option in every possible situation? Not in my experience. In my Burmester system, the Burmester 948 is a better fit. It seems in particular my Burmester 088 preamp needs the 948 to function at optimum levels. Perhaps because the 948, which is a completely different design of power conditioner, also removes DC from the AC circuit. Yet in my other system, where I use the Hydra AV in one, and the Cyclops in another, they are much better than the Burmester in reducing the noise floor. And since I have started moving to Sigma power cables (I now have 3) in my "big" system, the Hydra AV has drawn very close to giving me the same degree of performance as I am getting from the Burmester 948. My experience is that the Sigma cables are reducing the role of the power conditioner. Most of my "jaw dropping" moments have come from Shunyata power cables to components. Followed a fair way behind by the power conditioner, then the wall socket, then the power cable from wall to power conditioner, then the speaker cable, then the IC cables. But that's just me. When I have these (rare) jaw dropping moments, it was clear to me that I had some sort of roadblock in the system. Getting rid of it can cause a significant drop in the noise floor of the system. Either through better impedance matching or reduction of major electrical interference. This sort of system noise is insidious - you cannot hear it while it is there, only when you reduce it. But it always masks differences between components and cables to some extent. In my subjective view

+1 Well said

[calcutroop]

Thank to Glisse for a logical answer and one that seems based on experience. Once again, I just asked question and in no way I was looking for a war or to be negative or blast Shunyata. I have for about 5 thousands dollars worth of Shunyata power cords, so I am not «sceptical», and even if I was, I think that my questioning would be appropriate. There is many products on the market that are not worthy (none of Shunyata that I know of) and are claimed to produce that «jaw dropping moment» or that «magic moment». My purpose is not to drop names but I am sure that all of you have some in mind.

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by calcutroop

Thank to Glisse for a logical answer and one that seems based on experience. Once again, I just asked question and in no way I was looking for a war or to be negative or blast Shunyata. I have for about 5 thousands dollars worth of Shunyata power cords, so I am not «sceptical», and even if I was, I think that my questioning would be appropriate. There is many products on the market that are not worthy (none of Shunyata that I know of) and are claimed to produce that «jaw dropping moment» or that «magic moment». My purpose is not to drop names but I am sure that all of you have some in mind.

In support of what I think you have implied and to what Glisse explicitly said: I have heard NO interconnects that were "jaw dropping" in their positive effect. I have however heard some interconnects that were distinctly flawed in some key aspect. Some of these were quite exotic and expensive BTW. Differences in interconnects are largely subtle and could be characterized as "favors" or colorations. I suppose if you made a change from one of the flawed variety to a decent model then the change could possibly be termed jaw dropping. Additionally, interconnects that are very long will tend to show greater variation between types due to the multiplying effect of the long lengths. We always test prototype cables in very long lengths so we can more clearly hear their unique characteristics.

On the other hand, I HAVE very often experienced power cords and speaker cables that had a profoundly positive effect. Certainly not subtle nor just variations in tonal coloration.

just my experience, of course
Your mileage will certainly vary ...