Blasphemy to use "Tone Controls" on Mc Pre-Amp?

[Charles]

I would like to make a response to 007. Going the equalizer route means that you will never experience the absolute wonder of a truly high resolution high end system. While true that it is supremely easy to waste money in the quest for reproductive perfection, it is also true that this is one instance where there is a rainbow and a pot of gold at its end, i.e. truly beautiful gorgeous amazing sound. You will never experience this tremendously worthwhile experience with tone controls.

The high end is a journey. This journey takes money and lots of it and it takes good hearing and the ability to learn from your mistakes. I am a speaker aficionado because I know that this is where my resources can make the most difference but my system is extremely high rez yet at the same time very forgiving, meaning almost everything sounds really good through it, yet there are vast differences in one recording to the next. If I place an equalizer into my current system, it would be immediately noticeable and not subtle, even with the equalizer "out" it would be noticeable.

Tone controls can be used to tame speakers, recordings, or both. When I was younger I was infatuated with Mac. I had a c29 pre but I lusted for the fully decked out Mac pre and bought a c34. It was so beautiful. It had the compander and all sorts of do dads. Think I had Dalquist DQ10's Luxman direct drive turntable, Mac CD player, and some kind of Mac amp. I noticed rather immediately that the c34 was much noisier. I learned from that experience, never forgot. Dad owned a c22 pre. Everybody at Lawrence Hi-Fi in Birmingham was so excited about the first Mac SS pre, the c24. Dad bought one. It was not good compared to the c22. It has taken Mac many years to be able to match the c22. I could provide many other instances but these two are a few to suggest to you that unfortunately you can "hear" virtually every piece of gear that you own. I'm not suggesting that you not employ equalization but you will never experience the joy and amazement provided by a minimalist high rez high end system and it is possible to put such a system together where virtually every recording sounds good to the ear yet quite different recording to recording.

Currently I am considering a Wilson Audio XVX. The chances are about 50-50. I have already made it clear to my dealer it would be my last speaker and my last piece of equipment with the possible exception of a D1100 upgrade simply because it would be so easy and inexpensive to do. Why? Because I am at my journey's end and I would like to experience the absolute ultimate for a number of years before my hearing goes and before I die. I love the Wilson-Mac sound and now at last I have the cables and cords to match. It's a tremendous temptation for me. Some folks are constantly searching for the sound signature they really like and never find it. This syndrome manifests itself in the purchase of the latest and greatest DAC, amp, cable, cord, etc. It is like an itch. You scratch and it is relieved for a while.

____________________
Charles Updated System
Most recent update: AQ Diamond USB replaces AQ Coffee
Amps: McIntosh 1.25KW’s (3) set on floor on custom made cultured marble slabs
Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100
Sources: McIntosh MCD1100 SACD player, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 23)
Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx
Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) horizontal lie and Wilson Watch Controller (abbr: WC)
Cables main system: Audioquest Wel Signature speaker cables and balanced IC (preamp to amps); Wel Signature AES/EBU balanced digital IC for CD playback; Audioquest Diamond optical (1) for tuner, (1) for BR player, and (1) for LD player for total of (3); Diamond USB cable; McIntosh MCT cable for SACD playback; Dragon power cords (5 HC cords and 3 source cords for total of 8); Thunder HC power cord for tuner; cables for DVD player not listed
Cables subwoofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable (1); Wolf balanced subwoofer IC from WC to amp; Wind balanced IC from preamp to WC; Hurricane HC (2) and Dragon HC (1) power cords
Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines with no. 10 wire straight out of fuse box
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD) solid walnut cabinet on large casters; holds all sources and preamp; also, Niagara 7000; 11 feet minimum distance from speakers
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes enough to turn the room into a virtual anechoic chamber if desired; however, at present my room is significantly reflective giving me a bright, vibrant, dynamic, highly resolving, smooth sound free of harshness and grain and perfect for my taste; zero slap echo; gorgeous midrange
AC: Dedicated to this room only, an ultra-high efficiency and quiet recently installed Ruud split system 3-ton heat pump.
Room (mancave): 40’L x 15.5’W A-frame; max ceiling height 8’ min 5’; wall within wall construction built of 2 x 6’s; built over garage with custom hardwood floor with gym seal with over 40 Lowes stiffened wooden I-beams supporting floor; complete isolation from rest of house

[KaliKid2013]

I was 100% completely against tone controls. I didn't have them in my system, I didn't want them in my system, and I had no interest in using them.

I got my listening room as good as humanly possible with acoustic treatments, placement of the speakers, toe-in, and placement of the listening position.

My system sounded good, but I thought it can sound better, so I got a little bit frustrated. Then my dealer told me what a great experience he had setting up 800 D3 in a customer's home that had terrible placement. The customer had ordered a men220 with his system, and my dealer raved about how awesome it made terribly placed speakers sound.

So my dealer spent 10 months trying to convince me I should try the men220, 100% risk free and if I didn't like it he wouldn't hesitate to take it back. In fact I didn't have to pay for it if I didn't like it he was just ordering me one to try because he knew I would like it. So after 10 months of him not shutting up about it, I caved and told him to order me one to try.

All I can say now is holy crap... the men220 has brought my system to perform at its maximum potential, and the results have completely blown me away.

I have 97% room knowledge, and it is using 10% correction. And let me tell you, that 10% it is correcting makes a tremendous difference.

All the people here who say that all that matters is the sound, and all that matters is you like the sound are 100% correct. Who cares if some audio snob thinks you are not a purist for using tone controls, you do what you like best and what sounds best to you.

I was going to leave a review of my men220 on the men220 thread that has been here on the forum for a while, but the problem is, ever since getting the unit about a month ago, I haven't been able to pull myself away from the system long enough to add my two cents to the thread.

So after trying the men220, I texted my dealer and told him that he would have to fight me if he thought he was ever going to get it back, LOL.

And even better, I didn't have to buy it from him, we traded for some Macintosh equipment that I had that I wasn't using and was never going to use.

So I can confidently say the men220 has completely changed my opinion about tone controls, and has really taken my very good sounding system, and transformed it into a beast that I haven't been able to pull myself away from in the three or four weeks since I added it to my system.

[PeterMusic]

Hi Kali,

I do not doubt that the MEN220 improved your sound, but I had a very different experience. I brought home a MEN220 demo unit from my dealer, and it lasted just a few minutes after set up. It was a good addition on the low end, but my system/room lost performance, realism, sparkle on the high end. My take is that if you've got a significant problem to correct, then the MEN220 might be worth the trade off, but there is a definite trade off

[KaliKid2013]

Hello, yeah it's probably like every piece of audio equipment it works for some applications and not as well for others.

My room is pretty well treated and the unit is only using 10% correction, so I don't think my room had a gigantic problem to begin with?

My point was really just that I was very anti tone control prior to receiving the men220, and it completely changed my opinion of what they can do to the music.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by PeterMusic

Hi Kali,

I do not doubt that the MEN220 improved your sound, but I had a very different experience. I brought home a MEN220 demo unit from my dealer, and it lasted just a few minutes after set up. It was a good addition on the low end, but my system/room lost performance, realism, sparkle on the high end. My take is that if you've got a significant problem to correct, then the MEN220 might be worth the trade off, but there is a definite trade off

I agree. I am not an audio snob and I am not sure what a "purist" means. An MEN220 or any other room correction device colors the whole sound of a high rez system. I note that your experience with it probably lasted 10 minutes. When I bought my D1100 I remarked to Mac that you couldn't do vinyl through it because vinyl was analog. Mac remarked not so because the 1100 phono input converted the vinyl to digital. How ludicrous to defeat the beauty of vinyl by passing it through an A to D conversion. There is a principle here. When you severely manipulate the signal with a tone control or any equalizer, it becomes immediately noticeable in a high rez system. Of course its benefits also become noticeable, a smoother high end, low end peaks removed or reduced, etc. When you use a sub woofer and you pass the whole signal through its crossover for room correction you are doing the exact same thing. Ultimately any type of equalization becomes a choke point or the "sound quality limiting step" because the sound of your system becomes critically dependent on the quality of the equalizer. Look, this is just a choice. Folks spend a lot of money on their systems and I believe your audio journey for the most part ends when you employ equalization. There is an exception. I think Ivan uses an Accuphase component to achieve equalization on one of his really expensive high rez systems. However, in this case the system is essentially finished and the piece is extremely expensive and he can determine with his ears if the amount of coloration is acceptable because there will always be audible coloration. If you have a room that is simply uncorrectable or in a case like Ivan, no problem. Ultimately, it is a matter of personal preference. This has been an excellent discussion with excellent points on both sides.

Add thought: What do I mean by audible coloration? It is a glaze or haze over the entire system sound that causes a loss of resolution and detail and a loss of the openness of the sound.

[quartersaw]

Originally Posted by Yamaki

McIntosh realizes the reality of the real world and provided tone controls to allow you to control the playback and SQ to your liking.

Use them if you feel the need to. The only offensive behavior here is not enjoying your music.

Speaking for myself, I like a good, 'ole fashioned LOUDNESS control.

[usbyte]

I prefer tone controls although I use it occasionally. Especially at night when the volume is set very low, I need a little bump in the bass and treble

[Msegal]

Tone controls are the Devils dealings!
Good honest people people avoid at all cost!

[emoji50][emoji6]

[Cohibaman]

Originally Posted by msegal

tone controls are the devils dealings!
Good honest people people avoid at all cost!

[emoji50][emoji6]

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[nicoff]

Tone controls/EQ is not the same as Room Correction. Here is an article written by someone from Dirac that explains the differences.

https://www.cepro.com/audio-video/ro...om_correction/

In my experience the judicious use of Room Correction can work wonders in any system including high-end systems. After all, many high-end systems reside in very imperfect rooms that can benefit greatly from this technology. It is certainly much more cost effective than spending tons of money on fancy cables that act no different than tone controls or regular EQ. The fact is that live Room Correction technologies are now being used in symphonic music halls to adjust the sound that even tons of money in acoustical treatments could not fix.