SA-12SE announced in UK - How does it compare to SA-10?

[rnrmf1971]

Originally Posted by Dilettante

I will have to disagree with you on the Modwright Oppo 105 vs stock 105. The Modwright 105 is night n day better than the stock 105, no comparison. I've heard them both side by side in the same system setup. I couldn't stand listening to the stock 105 for extended period, it sounded too digital for me. The stock 205 is a definite improvement over the stock 105 hands down but still could not compare to the Modwright 105/205 or the Marantz SA-10.
The stock Oppo 105 is a great bluray player when using HDMI out for bluray / DVD movie playbacks. I own one in my dedicated home theater setup system. The picture quality is top notch and is a very reliable bluray player. The 205 is even better plus you get the benefit of playing 4K UHD movie discs.

By the way, I noticed that you have the SA-10 and the PM-10 integrated in the same setup. How's the PM-10 integrated amp? I think the amplifier output stage is class D? The use a linear analog toroidal transformer power supply in the PM-10 is it just for the preamp section or for both the preamp & power amp sections?
I'm skeptical when it comes to class D amps when used for listening to music but I wouldn't mind class D amps for movies (home theater).

I can't really criticize the PM-10 but I haven't compared it directly to another amp. In the near future, I've arranged to bring it to a dealer and compare to a Vitus class A integrated that I'm considering simply to change things up. That will answer my question about how it compares to higher priced gear.

The PM-10 is rather overbuilt, and I wanted a fully balanced amp, which it is. I didn't let myself be dissuaded by the class D architecture when I was considering it. While I have no criticisms of it, I think the disc player may be the really special piece of the pair.

[Crumhorn]

Originally Posted by Crumhorn View Post
Nope - class A/B only. 700 watts of class A would generate huge amounts of heat! (The IRS Beta woofer towers are nominally 4 ohms, so really 1,400 watts...)

Originally Posted by Dilettante

I meant class A biased into AB. My Classe Omega Reference monoblock amps are class A/AB and are biased into class A for the first 50 watts.
The new Classe Delta Mono & Stereo amps are also class A/AB and are biased into class A for the first 35 watts @ 8 ohms.

I just checked the minimal manual - I purchased them in 1992, and there is no mention of any class A biased into AB. As I was buying then solely to power the woofer towers, I don't think the issue ever crossed my mind.

Out of curiosity, I tried them on the mid/tweeter panels - although they were more strictly "neutral" & extended than the Manley Reference 350 monoblocks (VTL) I was using at the time (350 wpc tube room-heaters), they couldn't otherwise compete. (To be fair, the mid/tweets were specifically designed for tube amps - I think they even said so in the manual. Solid state has improved a lot since then...)

[Dilettante]

Originally Posted by rnrmf1971

I can't really criticize the PM-10 but I haven't compared it directly to another amp. In the near future, I've arranged to bring it to a dealer and compare to a Vitus class A integrated that I'm considering simply to change things up. That will answer my question about how it compares to higher priced gear.

The PM-10 is rather overbuilt, and I wanted a fully balanced amp, which it is. I didn't let myself be dissuaded by the class D architecture when I was considering it. While I have no criticisms of it, I think the disc player may be the really special piece of the pair.

I see. I have never listened to the PM-10 and would love to some day. Yes, the SA-10 is a very good sounding player.

However, I have heard some Vitus amps (both integrateds & separates) at various different high end shows and those were spectacular but very expensive whereas the Marantz is on the budget side. Marantz is very well known for building great budget gears and they sound pretty good for the money. Even their home theater processors such as the AV8802 & AV8805 are great sounding HT processors for the money when used for surround movies.

Another great integrated amp you might want to consider would be the Gryphon Diablo lll. It retails at least twice as much as the PM-10 if not more. The Gryphon Diablo was built like a tank big extremely heavy, can't remember if it's class A or AB or perhaps A/AB biased into class A. Like my Classe Omega Reference monoblock amps which are class A/AB and are biased into class A for the first 50 to 100 watts.

Another great integrated to highly consider would be the Naim Uniti Nova all-in-one integrated, which is basically a digital music streamer/DAC/integrated amp all in a single chassis. It retails for $7500 and the amplifier runs in class AB mode. The Uniti Nova is rather compact in size and while it is conservatively rated at 80 watts @ 8 ohms the Nova is balsy robust and has no problem driving any speakers. Wattage (power output) doesn't tell you anything, what matters most is the current delivery. All Naim amplifiers are very conservatively rated.
The Uniti Nova is a highly musical sounding unit and excels in all areas.
The Naim Uniti Nova comes with built-in Tidal & Quboz streaming apps and is Roon ready (compatible). The streamer/DAC is spectacular. The Uniti Nova has analog inputs for you to connect from your SA-10. I have the Naim Uniti Nova in my secondary setup. Highly recommended! Highly musical sounding unit. I'm also using the Naim Uniti Core music server connected to my Uniti Nova. I highly recommend getting the Naim Uniti Core music server ($2500) to connect to the Uniti Nova or any good quality music server will do.

I am a big fan of Naim. I'm thinking to sell all my Classe Omega Reference separates & my Cary CD 306 SACD player and get the Naim 500 series separates which consists of the Naim ND 555 streamer/DAC with its matching external Naim 555 PS DR power supply unit (PSU), Naim NAC 552 linestage preamp with its matching external 555 PS DR PSU, Naim NAP 500 DR power amp with its external 555 PS DR PSU. The NAP 500 DR stereo amp is a true dual mono amps put in a single chassis. All Naim 500 series separate components don't have onboard power supplies and each individual component is meant to be paired with external Naim 555 PS DR PSU(s), at least one for each component.
I know this will be a very expensive upgrades. I have heard them at a local dealer and they were simply phenomenal but very expensive. These Naim 500 series separate components costing well over $100k total (around $120k total for the streamer/DAC, linestage preamp & amp).

My cousin own the Naim Statement NAC S1 linestage preamp ($90k) and the Naim Statement NAP S1 monoblock amps ($190k/pair) driving his new Magico M9 speakers ($765k/pair). He has multi-million dollar setup/system. For analog front end components he has the Clearaudio Statement V2 turntable ($220k), Statement TT tonearm, Statement Goldfinger cartridge & the D'Agostino Momentum phono pre ($28k). For digital front end components he has the MSB Select II DAC stacks with its flagship Femto 33 clock & two separate mono powerhouses (two separate mono power supply units for the Select II DAC) costing around $120k, MSB Select transport with an external PSU ($45k plus), Taiko Audio SGM Extreme music server (around $40k). I could only dream of having what he has. Well, he has all the money and the listening room space that most of us could only dream of. Even his speaker cables, which is Transparent Magnum Opus ($60k), cost twice as much as my B&W 800 D3 speakers ($30k) Lol

[Dilettante]

Originally Posted by Crumhorn

Originally Posted by Crumhorn View Post
Nope - class A/B only. 700 watts of class A would generate huge amounts of heat! (The IRS Beta woofer towers are nominally 4 ohms, so really 1,400 watts...)



I just checked the minimal manual - I purchased them in 1992, and there is no mention of any class A biased into AB. As I was buying then solely to power the woofer towers, I don't think the issue ever crossed my mind.

Out of curiosity, I tried them on the mid/tweeter panels - although they were more strictly "neutral" & extended than the Manley Reference 350 monoblocks (VTL) I was using at the time (350 wpc tube room-heaters), they couldn't otherwise compete. (To be fair, the mid/tweets were specifically designed for tube amps - I think they even said so in the manual. Solid state has improved a lot since then...)

You purchased your Classe M-700 amps in 1992? I think it's time to retire them but since you are only using them to power your Infinity's woofers they should be just fine to keep until they die on you. Yes, SS amps from that era (early 90s & 80's) simply could not compete with great quality tube amps like the VTL monoblocks you had at the time. But time has passed and SS amps have come a long way.

My Classe Omega Reference monoblock amps, which were first launched in early 2000's, are very smooth very musical and tonally are quite neutral with a hint of warmth (leaned towards warmer side of neutral) but I would characterize them as intoxicated warmth, it isn't like syrupy kind of warmth. But my Classe Omega Reference monoblocks are in different league than your Classe M-700 monoblocks. My Omega Reference monoblocks did retail for around $25k to $30k for the pair when they were first launched back in 2002/2003 up until they got discontinued in 2010ish. They sounded way better than the lower end Classe amps such as your M700, and plus your M700 were way older than my Omega Reference monoblocks.

Yes, if I had to bi-amp or tri-amp speakers I would use good quality tube amps to power highs & mids and good quality SS amps to power the woofers. That would be ideal.

[Crumhorn]

I wasn't casting any aspersions on Classe in general, or your amps in particular, just stating my perception at the time.

There were definitely better SS amps to be had in 1992 than the M-700s (although not that many were high-power designs); when it comes to bass control, Krell immediately comes to mind. But to get a similar amount of power, the cost would have been double to quadruple the Classe's, and it just didn't seem worth it to me - the Classe's were good enough.

In the next few years I expect to (sadly) let go of the Infinitys, & just stick with the Atrias (I need to simplify my life), so I will no longer have a need for the Classe's either. In the meantime, they will continue to serve...


SOTA Cosmos TT (vacuum, Electronic Flywheel), SME V, Koetsu Rosewood Signature
Marantz SA-10 SACD player, Alesis ML-9600 mastering CD burner, Nakamichi 700 ZXE Cassette Deck
Pass Labs XP-15 phono stage
Pass Labs XP-30 (SS) & Hovland HP-100 (tube) preamps
Edge G8+ laser-biased monoblocks & Classé M-700 monoblocks
Rockport Atria & Infinity IRS Beta Speakers
Audience AU24 SX Phono cable, MIT Shotgun ICs, Shunyata Alpha v1 SCs
Revelation Audio Labs 'Passage' CryoSilver Reference DualConduit DB-25 umbilical cables for Pass XP-30
Shunyata Denali 6000T power conditioner (on BBA platform), Shunyata Alpha NR v1, Delta NR v1, & Venom HC PCs. Also PS8 & 2 Venom Defenders.
Audio Magic Ultimate SHD Bees Wax Fuse, Synergistic Research Blue & Black fuses, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses
Klaudio LP200 ultrasonic RCM

[GSOphile]

Originally Posted by Dilettante

....
My cousin own the Naim Statement NAC S1 linestage preamp ($90k) and the Naim Statement NAP S1 monoblock amps ($190k/pair) driving his new Magico M9 speakers ($765k/pair). He has multi-million dollar setup/system.
....
Lol

Just curious: Unless your cousin is named Alon Wolf, how does he have speakers that Magico says will not ship until Q4 2020?

[silversurfer6]

Would you use the Marantz DAC into a Classe Delta Pre or go digital and use the Class DAC?

[Dilettante]

Originally Posted by GSOphile

Just curious: Unless your cousin is named Alon Wolf, how does he have speakers that Magico says will not ship until Q4 2020?

He already ordered them and currently in the list. Yeah, I think he told me it will be a while until he can get the M9. He's still currently using the M6, which he is going to put them up for sale once he gets the M9. I haven't seen him since February. We practice social distancing. Plus he lives about 50 miles away from me.

He also has another reference 2ch system setup which consists of the Sonus Faber Aida ll paired with all ARC Reference gears. He's bi-amping the Aida ll with 2 pairs of the ARC Reference 750 SE vacuum tube monoblock amps + ARC Reference 10 linestage pre. So he might let go of his M6 before he actually receives the M9.

[Dilettante]

Originally Posted by silversurfer6

Would you use the Marantz DAC into a Classe Delta Pre or go digital and use the Class DAC?

You should try both and see which one would sound better. But if you go digital out of the Marantz SA10 you can only do CD, not SACD. The SA10 has only spdif (coax digital) & optical digital outputs.

[silversurfer6]

Yes of course I will try both.