Guarneri Mementos' Observations

[bachrocks]

For those curious, here are some assorted notes on my purchase of the GMs. They are not exclusively listening notes. In fact, I'll begin without hardly mentioning how they sound.

Moving from Liuto floor standing speakers to the GMs has rocked my world in unexpected ways.

The obvious physical differences were the first charge in upsetting my audio status quo. I must be aging, because I notice more and more that I like change less and less. That's not quite accurate; what I mean is that even very positive changes can leave one feeling confused. We were used to seeing and hearing the piano black Liutos unassumedly waiting to serve us our music. Now, suddenly, these drop-dead gorgeous GMs have overtaken the room as a showcase for their beauty.

Sometimes, I just stand looking at the wood finish on the GMs. I am transported to a museum. These speakers are objects of art. I find myself moved by them to think and reflect, just as I might do when looking at a famous painting or even a great building. There is something profound in the appearance of the GMs.

Still, I do not feel as relaxed with the GMs as I did the Liutos, our dear friend for over two years. I guess the lesson here is that it takes time to adjust to new surroundings, even when they are a vast improvement. I remember reading about a study where students in a math class did better on their exams when they were in their regular room and worse when they were placed in a different one.

With each new purchase or change in my system, I feel I learn some hard lessons. I fell in love with the Liutos because they reproduced the sound of piano much better than the Cremona Auditors. Afterwords, I wondered if I gave up the magic of the Auditors midrange for the accomplished but not brilliant Liuto. Now, in a strange reversal, I wonder if I sacrificed low frequency content for a midrange crafted in heaven.

Amazingly, I am even considering giving the GMs to our sister, putting the Liutos back in place, and the getting a full range model such as Olympica II or III, at a minimum, or in my dreams, something else from the Homage series. I probably won't do this but I am considering it.

The purchase of the GMs was an impulse buy of sorts. I had been lusting after these since I first saw them when I auditioned my system. I did not listen to them as they were too expensive new. From my wife's perspective, it was like they were blown in by a tornado. One day the Liutos were in place; the next day they were in our bedroom, covered in their red cloth, waiting to learn of their fate.

What I later discovered is that my wife cared more about our audio system than I imagined. She was not happy to lose the Liutos. She was used to them, and I did not consult her at all about this purchase. Big mistake. She is my audio partner--and the financial muscle behind my too-rich-for-me purchases--often silent, but still on board. Unknowingly, I wronged her a little with the GMs. She does not mind the expense as much I think as being so suddenly left out of the audio discussions. Anyhow, another lesson learned.

Okay, let me post more soon.

[jdandy]

Ron.......Very good post. You are able to convey your thoughts and emotions well. I am looking forward to this thread progressing.

I would say one thing. Keep the Guarneri Memento's and add a JL Audio f112 or f113 subwoofer. The GM's are capable of integrating with a subwoofer or two wonderfully and will make you forget you ever considered parting with them, plus you'll have far better bass and deeper than the Liutos can ever produce.

[Yamaki]

Wonderful thoughts and observations.

Thank you for sharing!

[bachrocks]

Thank you Dan and Yamaki.

I have some interesting listening tests to post soon that my wife and I did. For now, though, let me air my thoughts on low frequency sounds.

The GMs definitely do bass, but there is some subtle yet necessary elements of low frequency that are missing. Is this the "room pressurization" that I have been reading about?

Dan, with great interest, I read your posts about subwoofers. It irked me that after spending so much, I had to buy more, and being in a small condo, I hardly have space for two sets of speakers. But, if I want great sound, somehow, I need additional low-frequency content.

This whole bass saga has pushed the idea of not just speakers but my room to the fore. My room is totally untreated. Except for the small throw rug that I "kick" into place on the floor between the left speaker and my seat--there used to be two rugs, one for each speaker, until the wife thought of a "better" place to put the second one--I have done nothing to the room.

I think my room is not acoustically poor. I enjoy the sound, sometimes, deeply so, but I also have this suspicion that the sound could be better, much better, and this has led me back to a component that I fell in love with when it came out, the MEN220, although I have not heard it yet.

Dan, in your system, you used the Bryston analog crossover to connect the sub in your GM system. Could I use the MEN220 to do this? Would it be as seamless as what your heard with the Bryston? I want to hear what the MEN220 can do in my room for room correction, and it could also serve the subwoofer.

This brings me to my other dilemma: can I get away with only one sub? I saw a used McIntosh sub for sale--I don't remember the model but the same one Dan mentioned. Is this the best one for the GMs? What about the Cremona sub? If I need two, are there smaller ones of high quality that anyone could suggest?

Okay, more later

[bachrocks]

Listening Tests

In theory, I would like to subject every variable in my audio system to testing. In practice, I am discovering that I am not so much an audiophile as I am a music listener. Don't get me wrong: I love gear, but I don't want to tinker too much. That's why, with great pride, I offer these notes. Two weeks and two days ago, my wife and I listened to 5 variations of our system.

One of the most ingenious pieces of audio advice I received was from Toga, who suggested I replace my stock outlets with audio-grade ones. I bought one gold-plated and one rhodium-plated Furutech outlet. I am still tickled by this brilliant suggestion.

I also replaced all stock PCs with DIY PCs, nice cable and Wattgate connectors. What made this test thrilling was that Toga lent me his Anaconda PC and a JPS Aluminata PC as well as Anaconda SCs, which he was trying out from the Shunyata shop. The test involves the variables of the Transparent PIR (power conditioner), the various cables I had on hand, and the two different outlets, gold and rhodium. The ICs were KS Imagination and I never changed them on this test.

Okay, here are the results. During each listening test, we listened to five minutes of Laki Mera's How Dare You on the Oppo. System changes are in bold.

System 1: although three of the cables I used were not mine, for our purposes, let's call this my "stock" system.
PIR (JPS Labs PC) to wall (gold)
Amp (Anaconda PC) and preamp (DIY PC) into one bay of PIR
Oppo (DIY PC) into wall (rhodium)
Amp to GMs (KS Imagination SCs)

Comments 1: This was our base system. We enjoyed the sound.


System 2:
PIR (JPS Labs PC) to wall (gold)
Amp (Anaconda PC) and preamp (DIY PC) into one bay of PIR
Oppo (DIY PC) into wall (rhodium)
Amp to GMs (Anaconda SCs)

Comments 2:
Ron: wow, great bass
Nit: (at first) better, but annoying, too much detail (after a minute or two) second part of song better, more delicious--(after this, we took a short walk for take-out, and on the way back, Nit kept talking about this system #2, I could feel it growing on her.)


System 3
PIR (JPS Labs PC) to wall (gold)
Amp (Anaconda PC) and preamp (DIY PC) into one bay of PIR
Oppo (DIY PC) into wall (gold)
Amp to GMs (Anaconda SCs)

Comments 3:
Ron: first I thought this is the most natural, then I felt a little laid-back, and by the end of the first minute, I pronounced it boring.
Nit: less detail, no sweetness or sharpness


System 4:
PIR (JPS Labs PC) to wall (gold)
Amp (Anaconda PC) into wall (gold)
preamp (DIY PC) into one bay of PIR
Oppo (DIY PC) into other bay of PIR
Amp to GMs (Anaconda SCs)

Comments 4:
Ron: not as good as system #2
Nit: better than System #3, this is more "seasoned"', #3 is bland


System 5:
PIR (Anaconda PC)to wall (gold)
Amp (JPS Labs PC) into PIR
preamp (DIY PC) into one bay of PIR
Oppo (DIY PC) into wall (rhodium)
Amp to GMs (Anaconda SCs)

Comments 5:
Ron: better bass, deep bass, musical, detailed, smooth, dynamic, more defined sound, profoundly musical and beautiful (this is best I thought)
Nit:sharpness of singer, singer is in front of instruments (BUT, nit thought system #2 was best)


System 6 (= system 2) we repeated system 2 so Nit could refresh her audio memory and I could confirm my preference for system 5)

Comments:
Ron: level is higher than system 5, triangle not as good as in 5, 5 is best!
Nit: (asks me to lower volume, from 35 to 33) not relaxing, brain has to work too hard, singer and instruments competing against each other, in system 5 they were a team, 5 is much better!

So, there you have it. We did this for ourselves to see what we'd like best. I hope these poor yet interesting data are helpful.

[MyPal]

Ron.... Great thread. I'm also inclined to agree with Dan. Don't give in on the GM just yet. JL F113s would be a great addition.

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by bachrocks

Thank you Dan and Yamaki.

I have some interesting listening tests to post soon that my wife and I did. For now, though, let me air my thoughts on low frequency sounds.

The GMs definitely do bass, but there is some subtle yet necessary elements of low frequency that are missing. Is this the "room pressurization" that I have been reading about?

Dan, with great interest, I read your posts about subwoofers. It irked me that after spending so much, I had to buy more, and being in a small condo, I hardly have space for two sets of speakers. But, if I want great sound, somehow, I need additional low-frequency content.

This whole bass saga has pushed the idea of not just speakers but my room to the fore. My room is totally untreated. Except for the small throw rug that I "kick" into place on the floor between the left speaker and my seat--there used to be two rugs, one for each speaker, until the wife thought of a "better" place to put the second one--I have done nothing to the room.

I think my room is not acoustically poor. I enjoy the sound, sometimes, deeply so, but I also have this suspicion that the sound could be better, much better, and this has led me back to a component that I fell in love with when it came out, the MEN220, although I have not heard it yet.

Dan, in your system, you used the Bryston analog crossover to connect the sub in your GM system. Could I use the MEN220 to do this? Would it be as seamless as what your heard with the Bryston? I want to hear what the MEN220 can do in my room for room correction, and it could also serve the subwoofer.

This brings me to my other dilemma: can I get away with only one sub? I saw a used McIntosh sub for sale--I don't remember the model but the same one Dan mentioned. Is this the best one for the GMs? What about the Cremona sub? If I need two, are there smaller ones of high quality that anyone could suggest?

Ron.......The MEN220 will not only give you the advantage of Room Perfect correction, it will also provide you with an excellent active crossover with many features unavailable on the Bryston 10B Sub, but remember the 10B Sub active crossover is a completely analog component. I used my MEN220 for both room correction and active crossover in the living room system.

The McIntosh XLS112 powered subwoofer is a very good subwoofer. I have two and used them with the Guarneri Memento's to my complete satisfaction. I now use them in my home theater system. The XLS112's are smaller than the JL Audio f112 and f113 subwoofers so they are easier to integrate into a small space. The Memento's and the XLS112's made incredible music together.

One subwoofer or two subwoofers is a question many struggle with. It is often said that in the lowest octave a listener cannot localize the direction of the lowest frequency range, thus a single subwoofer is sufficient. Reading Jim Smith's Get Better Sound book convinces you that two subwoofers are essential to accurately present the full breadth and depth of the sound stage. It is not simply low frequency bass we are attempting to reproduce, but also ambient sonic cues that help our mind to fully develop the sound stage. For this, two subwoofers are better than one.

I realize there are sometimes physical limitations that don't allow the integration of two subwoofers. In fact, I have that issue in my living room system and only have a single JL Audio Fathom f113 subwoofer in service for that system. I have placed it between the left and right channel speakers to help minimize localization and it works well for me. A single subwoofer can still work its magic in the lowest octaves and be very satisfying.

[AudioNut]

Ron,

I'm only jumping into your discussion to say that I have very sucessfully used a single (-1-) JL Audio F112 Sub with my Guarneri Mementos for just under three years and have never even considered purchasing a second one.

I am completely and totally satisfied with the combination.

As to the sound of your speakers, I love mine, feel that I'm not missing a thing, and would suggest that you consider making small adjustments in room placement, perhaps dialing them in a little better.

I have experienced significant differences in the sound resulting from tiny little movements of the speakers, and I'm sure that they wouldn't be perfectly optimal in the footprint of the Liutos.

Hope you learn to love them.

Julian

[1KW]

I have 2 JLF112 subs integrated with my SF GM and it makes a huge difference. I have no experience with the Mcintosh sub but if Dan says it integrates well than I am sure it does. Why not start with 1 sub if space and expense is a concern.

[TOGA]

Ron, as long as it was the right choice, don't worry about an impulse purchase. I have done this many times, never feel sorry with any of them. I will be your companion thru all the future process you are planning, asking for demo, asking for Special deal. You just prepare $$$.. If you want REN220 , go for it. If you want twin 18" subs , let s do it. Toga
P.S. You will never get a good deal on JL here. Only SVS seems to have right price here, but it is more suitable for theater use.