Christmas

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by pitchperfect

...See my previous post... The internal SUT is for low impedance carts. Jonathan is using a cartridge that is optimized by the use of a transformer better suited for his cartridge. The A23 Hommage T2 fits this bill.

Shindo couldn't possibility account for all the cartridge types on the market, that is why he includes a MM input on the preamps so you can use whatever you choose.

However - if using a low imp. cart like an SPU or similar spec'd cart then simply use the internal step up transformer and get incredible sound.

But, for those customers looking to maximize every point of their setup, the use of an Hommage T1 or Arome may be desirable.

-M

Or even better yet, a Bill's Devices Blue Cinemag step-up transformer!

[FranklinLG]

Wino,

Matt beat me to the punch, but I concur with his points. If I had an entire shindo system from cartridge=>TT=>Pre=>Amp, then yes, the built in SUT would fit the bill. But I don't have a Shindo cart, nor does my cart have similar impedance variables. Consequently, the Pre SUT is not specifically designed and optimized for my cart. Matt's point about all of the possible matches needed to mate the cartridges with the pre is similarly spot on. What I appreciate here is that Ken (Shindo) included the MM input to allow you to use whatever SUT fits best with your cart. For me, my Koetsu seems to pair nicely with the SUT design style like the Auditorium. Yes, I could use Bob's devices products, too. And the reviews on those are quite good. But I have read that the Auditorium Hommage goes beyond all other SUTs (Bob's included). And my own listening sessions with the Hommage T2, Shindo built in SUT (Massetto, Vosne, & Giscours), the standard Auditorium, and a multi-tweakable Nighthawk resulted in my concluding that the Hommage was in a league all by itself. It wasn't even close for me.

So on the one I hand I get your point. On the other, I get Matt's (and presumably Ken's). My take is this, Ken designs his Preamps in such a way that the real strength lies in what happens once the signal gets inside it. As you go up the line with Shindo it appears to me that Ken is able to redeliver more and more from the signal. And the phono stage of the Giscours (minus the SUT) is unlike anything I've ever heard. Even the stock sound coming through the built in SUT is remarkable. But something freaky happens when I mate in the Hommage T2 that doesn't happen elsewhere.

Finally, I would add this, I like the flexibility of finding the right match with a SUT for whatever cart I find I like! I'm looking at my Preamp to be the best it can be as a pre-amp and phono stage. IN this regard, I think Ken hits the ball out of the park!

[Wino]

Hey FranklinLG-

Thanks for your thorough explanation !

I understand the value of using a SUT with the Giscours, if you're not using a SPU style , Shindo, or other similar impedance carts-

It seems as though magic happens w/ the A23 H T2 + VR & above preamps !

David

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by Wino

Hey FranklinLG-

Thanks for your thorough explanation !

I understand the value of using a SUT with the Giscours, if you're not using a SPU style , Shindo, or other similar impedance carts-

It seems as though magic happens w/ the A23 H T2 + VR & above preamps !

David

When I first plugged my 103 in the MC of the Giscours, I felt that the gain was abit low but I loved the sound so much that I put the ARC REF 2 for sale.
I had some doubts about the need for a SUT but I trusted the pros and bought the standard ( not Homage) A23 SUT for the 103.
Needed some break in but now the sound is just wonderful and really puts the REF 2 to shame. The MM input of the Giscours is absolutely stellar.

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

[FranklinLG]

Originally Posted by Wino

It seems as though magic happens w/ the A23 H T2 + VR & above preamps !
David

David,

I don't know that I would agree or even suggest the "magic" happens at just those levels. First, let me clarify something, I'm no expert and I'm not an engineer. But I can tell you that what sold me on the Shindo line, as a prior Leben owner, was hearing a friend's Massetto + Cortese combo with my Os. The sound was so intoxicating that I really couldn't listen to my Leben in the same way I did. Since then I've had a few positive developments that afforded me the opportunity to grab a pair of GM-70's and a Giscours.

So it is my humble opinion that Ken (Shindo) does something with his pre-amp architecture that allows the music to be reproduced with a sound that appeals to many listeners' ears (myself included). As you move up his line it appears to me that he is able to do more with what it is fed from the source and pass it along to the amps. How he does this is not something I understand. But I believe that like a great chef, he is able to take some ingredients and create something that is satisfying. For me, what he does is just that - hence my excitement over my Giscours.

As for SUTs, they seem to be about stepping up the signal so you can hear the signal when it is fed into your phono stage. Some phono stages have all of this built in and dip switches or dials to allow you to handle it on the fly. But I prefer finding something that does what it does well and not as a jack of all trades. So matching the "turns" or step-up with your cartridge's impedance is critical. A dealer like Matt at Pitch Perfect Audio can offer you some further input and guidance on cartridges that mate well with Auditorium SUTs or one of the Shindo's MC inputs with your table & equipment. If you already have a cart, then he can aid you in trying to find a good match. Now the cartridge that I have is the Koetsu Vermillion. It appears to be similar in the impedance characteristics that work well with the Auditorium SUT that was originally designed to work with the Denon 103 cartridge. That is why I bought that SUT. The Hommage was originally geared toward a lower impedance cart like the SPUs, so it never made sense for me to try. Then the T2 was designed as the Hommage of the entry SUT I had. And when the T2 came out I got a demo (thanks Matt), and I never sent it back. What I found was that the T2 passed along more detail and created a more "there" experience. That experience has really improved with the Giscours, as I think the combination is even more intoxicating. It is now about as real as I can imagine. And if there is any room for me to do something it will be with either the speakers (waiting on the O98s and may go with the Petite Latour Field Coil one day) or with my turn table (I like the AMG).

Hope that explains my 2 cents.

[Wino]

Originally Posted by Jérôme W

When I first plugged my 103 in the MC of the Giscours, I felt that the gain was abit low but I loved the sound so much that I put the ARC REF 2 for sale.
I had some doubts about the need for a SUT but I trusted the pros and bought the standard ( not Homage) A23 SUT for the 103.
Needed some break in but now the sound is just wonderful and really puts the REF 2 to shame. The MM input of the Giscours is absolutely stellar.

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

Hey Jérôme-

Happy New Year !

Cool, another Giscours aficionado !

You guys all suck, now I want one, ha ha-

David

[Wino]

Originally Posted by FranklinLG

David,

I don't know that I would agree or even suggest the "magic" happens at just those levels. First, let me clarify something, I'm no expert and I'm not an engineer. But I can tell you that what sold me on the Shindo line, as a prior Leben owner, was hearing a friend's Massetto + Cortese combo with my Os. The sound was so intoxicating that I really couldn't listen to my Leben in the same way I did. Since then I've had a few positive developments that afforded me the opportunity to grab a pair of GM-70's and a Giscours.

So it is my humble opinion that Ken (Shindo) does something with his pre-amp architecture that allows the music to be reproduced with a sound that appeals to many listeners' ears (myself included). As you move up his line it appears to me that he is able to draw more out from the source and pass it along to the amps. How he does this is not something I understand. But I believe that like a great chef, he is able to take some ingredients and create something that is satisfying. For me, what he does is just that - hence my excitement over my Giscours.

As for SUTs, they seem to be about stepping up the signal so you can play it back. So matching the "turns" or step-up with your cartridge's impedance is critical. A dealer like Matt at Pitch Perfect Audio can offer you some further input and guidance on cartridges that mate well with Auditorium SUTs or one of the Shindo's MC inputs with your table & equipment. If you already have a cart, then he can aid you in trying to find a good match. Now the cartridge that I have is the Koetsu Vermillion. It appears to be similar in the impedance characteristics that work well with the Auditorium SUT that was originally designed to work with the Denon 103 cartridge. That is why I bought that SUT. The Hommage was originally geared toward a lower impedance cart like the SPUs, so it never made sense for me to try. When the T2 came out I got a demo (thanks Matt), and I never sent it back. What I found was that the T2 revealed more detail and created a more "there" experience. That experience has really improved with the Giscours, as I think the combination is even more intoxicating.

Hope that explains my 2 cents.

Hey FranklinLG-

Thanks for the well written and descriptive explanation-

Perhaps I should have said 'more' magic, ha ha-

People than have listened to Shindo, or own it, hear the magic at all levels, not just the upper end stuff, I agree (IMHO)-

Your're obviously talking about magic too.... "Ken (Shindo) does something with his pre-amp architecture"; "he is able to draw more out from the source and pass it along to the amps. How he does this is not something I understand" Ha, ha, Ken is a magician !

I really like this analogy best.... "I believe that like a great chef, he is able to take some ingredients and create something that is satisfying. For me, what he does is just that"-

You may not (according to yourself), be an expert, though you sure know how to write ! More reviews please ! Even music reviews !

David