New VPI Classic 1 arriving tomorrow!

[unitycoupled]

A few months ago, my wife and I wandered into Bop Street Records here in Seattle and had such a wonderful time searching through all the old vinyl that it got me thinking about adding a nice table to my system. That led to a nice vintage AR "The Turntable", which I plan to restore this year. We had so much fun with the AR that I decided to get something better. Unfortunately, listening to various tables with particular cartridges mated with particular electronics is well nigh impossible, so I just did a bunch of research both in person and online and finally settled on the VPI Classic 1. I have a couple of questions that maybe some of you can help me with.

1) My rack is a Quadraspire Sunoko vent. The Classic is large and I'm not quite sure it will even fit on the rack. I think the Classic's feet wil just barely fit inside the Sunoko's post caps as I've seen photos of Classics on what looked like a Sunoko, but I can't be sure. Have any of you seen this table on a Quadraspire?

2) One cartridge that I've heard and really liked is the Zu DL-103 - basically a re-worked Denon DL-103. It's a heavy thing at 14 grams and I'm getting the heavier counterweight from VPI. Have any of you had any experience with this cart? Or better yet, with this cart and the VPI Classic?

3) If you have any other suggestions for good cartridges for this table, I'd love to hear them. It will be used with a McIntosh C22 60th or McIntosh C50 preamps depending on where I decide to locate the table.

Thank you!

[jwhite613]

Originally Posted by unitycoupled

2) One cartridge that I've heard and really liked is the Zu DL-103 - basically a re-worked Denon DL-103. It's a heavy thing at 14 grams and I'm getting the heavier counterweight from VPI. Have any of you had any experience with this cart? Or better yet, with this cart and the VPI Classic?

3) If you have any other suggestions for good cartridges for this table, I'd love to hear them. It will be used with a McIntosh C22 60th or McIntosh C50 preamps depending on where I decide to locate the table.

Thank you!

Hi. I called VPI when I bought my Classic for cartridge recommendations. I am glad I did, They told me all the factors for matching the cartridge to the table (Low Mass, High Output and Compliance). They highly recommended to me the Ortofon 2M series. I've used both the 2McBronze and the 2M Black and they both sound great. They said a lot of people buy the wrong carts for this table then ending up blaming the table. Before I bought any cartridge I would call VPI and ask if they think it is a good match (They don't mind the call either).

[unitycoupled]

Thanks Jeff. It's so difficult to choose carts because of personal tastes. What I really want to avoid is a cart that is overly bright or shrill. I want something that is laid back, with a big forward meaty midrange and good low end. I have Martin Logan Summit Xs, and they are already bright and shrill enough, even with McIntosh electronics! The Zu DL-103 sounds like this, but it is a high mass cart, so maybe not a good match for the table?

How would you describe the Ortofon 2M Black sound? Reviews of this cart that I've seen talk about "shimmering highs", which would leave my ears bleeding with the Logans. I have come to learn that accurate reproduction does not necessarily mean enjoyable.

I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they say.

Originally Posted by jwhite613

Hi. I called VPI when I bought my Classic for cartridge recommendations. I am glad I did, They told me all the factors for matching the cartridge to the table (Low Mass, High Output and Compliance). They highly recommended to me the Ortofon 2M series. I've used both the 2McBronze and the 2M Black and they both sound great. They said a lot of people buy the wrong carts for this table then ending up blaming the table. Before I bought any cartridge I would call VPI and ask if they think it is a good match (They don't mind the call either).

[jwhite613]

I don't find the Ortofon bright in my set-up. I use to have a pair of B&W 804S but got rid of those because their tweeters were bright (now have PMC OB1i's). This was before I had the Ortofon and the B&W speakers were also bright with my cd player. If you mention the sound you want and the equipment you have they will probably recommend a few different cartridges for you. I also just added a FURUTECH AG-12-R4 PHONO CABLE, great cable at reasonable price. Good Luck.

[j3brow]

I like my Clearaudio Maestro MM cart paired with my Scoutmaster upgraded with a 10.5i arm, like the Classic. When the Classic first came out, like a lot of Scoutmaster owners, I was intrigued and considered purchasing one. I talked to Elusive Disc and the sales associate commented that the best sounding Classic he had set up was with the Maestro. Of course, he was trying to make a sale so take with a grain of salt.

[joe1515]

Just like jwhite613 recommends I would call VPI. I called VPI many times and spoke with Mike he was instrumental in choosing my cartridge. I ultimitely went with the Benz Micro Glider M based on the advice from Mike. I explained to him my taste in music and that is what he recommended.

Congrats you are going to love the table.

Joe

[Tonepub]

Originally Posted by unitycoupled

Thanks Jeff. It's so difficult to choose carts because of personal tastes. What I really want to avoid is a cart that is overly bright or shrill. I want something that is laid back, with a big forward meaty midrange and good low end. I have Martin Logan Summit Xs, and they are already bright and shrill enough, even with McIntosh electronics! The Zu DL-103 sounds like this, but it is a high mass cart, so maybe not a good match for the table?

How would you describe the Ortofon 2M Black sound? Reviews of this cart that I've seen talk about "shimmering highs", which would leave my ears bleeding with the Logans. I have come to learn that accurate reproduction does not necessarily mean enjoyable.

I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they say.

Just curious, what's the rest of your system like? I've listened to the Summit X extensively and owned the Summit prior, and I'd never call these speakers bright and shrill....

Might be missing something in the setup.

[unitycoupled]

The Summit Xs are connected to a McIntosh MC452 via the 2 ohm outputs. Preamp is the McIntosh C50. Power comes from a PS Audio Power Plant Premiere. Interconnects are all balanced Zu Audio and Speaker wire is Transparent MusicWave. Source is a current MacBook Pro connected via both USB and optical. I normally use the USB port on the C50, but switch to optical when I am playing 24/96 or above material since the C50's USB input only supports 16/44.1 until McIntosh releases updated firmware.

Initially, I had problems with overt brightness and worst of all, a thin, piercing midrange that meant keeping the volume, and hence my involvement with the music, pretty low. Everyone I talked to pointed to my untreated room, but I wasn't buying it, since when I connected my tube gear to the Summits, they sounded much better.

Through trial and error, I did a few things that have tamed the Summits to the point that I am satisfied with their sound. The first step was to switch to the 2 ohm output taps, which made the midrange much more palatable. It seemed to reduce the sharpness in the midrange and made vocals seem larger, fuller and warmer. The next big leap was changing from my DIY straight 11AWG solid core copper to Transparent MusicWave. That was a huge improvement at which point I parted company with people who refuse to believe that wire makes a difference. Oddly enough, the highs were even more extended with this wire, but they were not irritating. Through all this, I suppose it's also possible that the Summits and the McIntosh electronics were breaking in. The sound of the whole system today is really quite good. As a final touch, I added a Musical Fidelity tube buffer in the C50's processor loop, which I enjoy with certain recordings. Having it in the processor loop makes it easy to switch in and out.

My other system, and the one that served as my benchmark for sonic goodness all along, consists of Harbeth Compact 7ES3s, McIntosh C22 60th preamp, McIntosh MC275 MkV, Wyred4Sound DAC2, a Mac Mini, Furman power conditioner, Zu Interconnects, Zu power cables and Zu Mission wire. That system has never failed to sound absolutely wonderful.

One of the things I've learned in the last few years is that one person's shrill highs and piercing midrange is another person's perfect sound. I personally like a warm, fuzzy sound. I don't even mind a little bass bloat. And I like my vocals big, warm and forward. To me, most audiophile gear sounds cold, sterile, thin, harsh, bright and hard edged. And what in the world is the thinking behind removing tone controls from preamps? Anyway...the whole experience with the Summits has left me always concerned about adding a component that will have the hard edged type of sound I describe above.

To give you an idea of my bias: For the last couple of weeks, I've been listening mostly to my Zu Omens, which is an interesting speaker. I'm quite sure many audiophiles would not like them at all, since they are all about big warm images and rich tone. I'm sure it's not an accurate speaker. I know it adds its own color. While I genuinely love the Summits for acoustic and classical music, I cautiously avoid listening to things like Stevie Ray Vaughn for fear that my ears will start to bleed. But the Omens allow me to crank it up and enjoy that type of music in a visceral sort of way.

Originally Posted by tonepub

Just curious, what's the rest of your system like? I've listened to the Summit X extensively and owned the Summit prior, and I'd never call these speakers bright and shrill....

Might be missing something in the setup.

[Tonepub]

That all makes perfect sense, and having owned the Harbeth Compact 7's and Monitor 40.1's, that is definitely a more mellow sound. How did you like the sound of your Summits with the MC275?

And I agree with you wholeheartedly in spirit: It's certainly about getting the sound you want. I'm probably not a fan of quite as warm a sound as you, but I always prefer things a drop or two to the warm side of neutral as well.

[unitycoupled]

You know, I like the sound a lot. I've seen threads on the subject and people seem to have strong opinions both ways. However, the Summits are part of our home theater system, so various family members are in there all the time watching movies or playing music. As a result, the C50 and MC452 are always getting turned off and on throughout the day. I didn't think the MC275, or any tube amp, would take too well to that kind of treatment. Its lack of support for 12v triggers also makes it a non-starter for that application.

The funny thing is that the MC275 didn't sound very good with the Summits when driven by the C50. It was good with the C22. Very good with the Benchmark DAC1 as DAC/PRE. And, strangely enough, sounded very good with the Peachtree iDecco as DAC/PRE. I don't understand why I didn't care for the sound of the MC275+C50+Summit X.

Originally Posted by tonepub

That all makes perfect sense, and having owned the Harbeth Compact 7's and Monitor 40.1's, that is definitely a more mellow sound. How did you like the sound of your Summits with the MC275?

And I agree with you wholeheartedly in spirit: It's certainly about getting the sound you want. I'm probably not a fan of quite as warm a sound as you, but I always prefer things a drop or two to the warm side of neutral as well.