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  #11  
Old 01-26-2013, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DonBattles View Post
That's the thing, moving the speakers in this room makes little to no difference from what I can tell. And depending on the song/recording it seems you either get too much bass or not enough.
What you need is a good reference recording, so you know what is suppose to be happening with that recording only. Once you have that, it really does not matter because everything is tuned in. Then you will hear the difference's in recordings, good or bad. Pick something with female vocals or male, the voice should be dead on center, something like Pat Benetar's "In The Heat Of The Night" LP. That will help you with imaging. Pick something that you are very very familiar with, also helps. Some Led Zepplein is also a very good recording to help out with. Each album sounds different for the most part, once you dial your speakers in you should be good to go for the most part.
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  #12  
Old 01-26-2013, 09:48 PM
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Also, for the most part the speakers should disappear.
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  #13  
Old 01-27-2013, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DonBattles View Post
Over the past month or two I've been having the thought that my Harbeth 7ES3's are all wring for my room and I've been considering other speakers that I believe will perform better in this space. Most of you have likely seen pictures of this space and know that the room is untreated acoustically. I recently re-watched the GIK video on early reflection points and something just smacked me right in the head Not addressing this issue will cause listeners to make choices they might not otherwise make, especially speaker choice. So, what I'm going to do is ask GIK Acoustics for their guidance and would like to do some of that here in hopes of making this a tutorial or sorts. So if Alexander from GIK is willing to participate here then we can proceed
Reflection points can cause some pretty intense effects similar to comb filtering without treatment. I know it will look silly, but sit in your chair and play a constant sound (like white or pink noise or something of the sort) and move your head forwards and backwards (depending on the room size, you might need to swing a good foot or two). You can hear the nulls change in frequency and intensity. Very obvious problems are associated with this!

And yes - decisions can be made with bad judgement when it comes down to it. Some people think they aren't getting enough low end from their speakers (or amp) and don't realize it very well may be the room.

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Originally Posted by Lunchy View Post
My room is also untreated...it's also been something I've been putting off as it's not an exciting thing to spend money on compared to electronics. However I have left over acoustic ceiling tiles that I've used in my audio room and I've recently placed them against the wall (using old golf clubs, haha!) at the reflection points and I can't believe the change in soundstage, bass response and high frequency response. The room sounds much bigger, the bass is full and tighter and the high frequencies have eased off a bit (a good thing in this case). The sound also is so much more coherent. Details shine through much more. Room treatments now seem like an exciting purchase!
I would assume that ceiling tiles will provide some helpful absorption, but full on bass traps make an even much more profound impact. You can see the absorption coefficients of our bass traps on our website and Google for some absorption coefficients for ceiling tiles to compare the differences.

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Originally Posted by Wasatch View Post
A cheaper way to go if you want is get some carpet panels from Walmart for about $11 each and see what they will do for ya. I think they do a very good job, maybe not as good as the pro stuff, but I'm willing to bet they will make a pretty good improvement.
I would bet otherwise, honestly, and that has nothing to do with my involvement in GIK. I'd rather you purchase panels from a competitor than add carpet to the walls..

Carpet can help with high frequency issues, but isn't thick enough to absorb low or mid frequencies very well (shag carpet might have some effect on mids). Carpet will deaden a room very fast and can lead to an even WORSE sounding room than before. Bass problems are the most detrimental in a room, as certain frequencies "ring" out in the room (modal resonance / standing waves, SBIR, all exhibit this behavior). Deadening the high end with thin absorbents like carpet and foam will only dampen the high end making your treble decay times MUCH shorter than your bass, which can result in an even more uneven sounding response.

If you've ever been in a room that has too much thin absorption, its extremely uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by thxthx View Post
Spot on... Its not an exciting thing to spend money on which is why I also avoided it. I have a significant improvement in sound now that I did add acoustic treatments and no longer have to squint or cover my ears!
I'm still unsure of the reason people are so scared to buy acoustic treatment..I don't think I'll ever understand.

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Originally Posted by thxthx View Post
Question is... if I upgrade my speakers, do I have to start all over again???
No.

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Originally Posted by Wasatch View Post
I'm also thinking pull the speakers out a few more inches. I just do not see that you need bass traps with those kind of speakers. I'm thinking reflection points only. You definitely need to add something to the back wall.
Why would you suggest that a speaker has anything to do with the necessities of bass traps? No speaker can ever be more or less impervious to room resonances. Modal behavior and standing waves affect every room (and really, any enclosed volume) regardless of the speaker. You aren't treating the speakers response, you're treating the room so you can correctly hear the speakers response!

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Originally Posted by DonBattles View Post
That's the thing, moving the speakers in this room makes little to no difference from what I can tell. And depending on the song/recording it seems you either get too much bass or not enough.
This behavior is exactly why you need bass traps. Some extensively low notes might of course escape your speakers, but that is the exception. Many songs might have prominent, strong bass, where other songs might seem more weak and boxy than they should (and by this I mean you aren't hearing what the song actually sounds like correctly)

---------

I realize I was being a bit strong with some of the wordings here but there were a lot of very common myths posted in this thread, and I wanted to be sure no one is going to end up investing in the wrong products and waste their money.

I'm also writing an article on decay times as we speak - so be on the lookout for that. Hopefully, it should clear up confusion on bass traps vs acoustic panels vs foam and all the other types of treatment available (and where and why they should be used).

If anyone is wanting to quantify their room response by the way, feel free to do so with REW. You can check out our video on it here: Room EQ Wizard Tutorial - GIK Acoustics
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Last edited by GIK Acoustics; 01-27-2013 at 02:41 AM.
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  #14  
Old 01-27-2013, 12:23 AM
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Alexander, thanks for the replies. I trust what you are saying and am committed to getting this problem addressed Givem my room size and layout what GIK products should I begin with. Especially on the wall with the closet doors not to mention the back wall with the entry door.
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  #15  
Old 01-27-2013, 12:51 AM
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Don,

I use GIK products in both my music rooms. The hardest one to get right has been my small room which is about the same size as yours.

Listen to Alexander, you are treating the room to hear the speakers. If you don't get the room right nothing will sound very good.
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  #16  
Old 01-27-2013, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DonBattles View Post
Alexander, thanks for the replies. I trust what you are saying and am committed to getting this problem addressed Givem my room size and layout what GIK products should I begin with. Especially on the wall with the closet doors not to mention the back wall with the entry door.
Hey Don,

To be general we usually suggest treating corners with bass traps and panels at the first reflection points to start, but a room can be treated many different ways to your own liking. For instance, some people use diffusion in many areas in the room as opposed to absorption pending their preference.

If you'd like, you can contact us directly and we can get you personalized recommendations, along with 3D renderings of the room showing placements, etc. You can use the form on our website here: Acoustical Room Advice - GIK Acoustics
(The form simply helps us stay organized, but don't be afraid to just send any of us an e-mail at any time if you're so inclined)
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by GIK Acoustics View Post
I'm still unsure of the reason people are so scared to buy acoustic treatment..I don't think I'll ever understand.
The reason I hesitated was because I did not believe I could get acurate and professional advise from someone that "actually" knew what they are talking about. So many peope talk the talk, make panels, take your money but don't walk the walk. I believe acoustic treatments is an area that many people don't fully understand and provide a lot of misleading advise. I don't have the money to keep buying and buying until they get it right. Get it right first time if you say you know what you're doing!

As usual I ended up researching myself and doing it myself. I'm sure there's lots of room for improvement. You guys have a lot more options in the U.S. for professionals

Oh... Of course its not exciting to spend money on... You can't plug it in and play with it... despite it making those toys sound better
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2013, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by thxthx View Post
The reason I hesitated was because I did not believe I could get acurate and professional advise from someone that "actually" knew what they are talking about. So many peope talk the talk, make panels, take your money but don't walk the walk. I believe acoustic treatments is an area that many people don't fully understand and provide a lot of misleading advise. I don't have the money to keep buying and buying until they get it right. Get it right first time if you say you know what you're doing!

As usual I ended up researching myself and doing it myself. I'm sure there's lots of room for improvement. You guys have a lot more options in the U.S. for professionals

Oh... Of course its not exciting to spend money on... You can't plug it in and play with it... despite it making those toys sound better
Hmm, thanks for posting this actually, it gave me a slightly different angle on it.

I've always wondered why acoustics can be so "misleading" and "salesman" like (and I do agree it is certainly like that with a lot of companies!!). It never made sense to me, as I sort of always understood the importance of lab testing on products like these. Your post has made me realize though that people really don't understand how important a lab report is.

Many people do just like you've said - build absorbers out of common materials. Of course this will work, but to what extent, how professional they will look, what the other options are, how much it really saves you (if any), are all sometimes ambiguous questions (and there should never be such ambiguity when trying to decide on a product that has quantifiable properties!!)

Maybe we should write an article on our website about testing!
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  #19  
Old 01-27-2013, 05:26 AM
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I'm all for acoustic treatment, but to do it without being in the room and listening I'm sceptical.
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  #20  
Old 01-27-2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Wasatch View Post
I'm all for acoustic treatment, but to do it without being in the room and listening I'm sceptical.
Why exactly? Of course a "in room" analysis would be idea. Keep in mind that common room surfaces have a fixed range of acoustic properties (carpet, sheet rock, etc.) and once the dimensions are known the rooms analysis can be done (or so I believe).
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