Dissapointing outcome comparison Shunyata Triton vs PS Audio P10 regenerator.

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by sander

Thanks everyone, for all your responses.

Some were rather ridiculous ("you should not post negative comments on the Shunyata forum" (?) ) , but most were very interesting though. Because they were based on experience.

Everyone does and should have the right to share their first hand experiences with any product in their own system.

I know i was not the first to do this comparison, but it is very hard to find reviews based on direct comparisons. That, and the reason i was challenged by mister Shunyata himself, should be a good enough reason to post my findings on the Shunyata forum.

I always encourage anyone considering the purchase of an expensive power conditioner to try our least expensive VENOM PS8 even if they are considering one our own more expensive power distributors. The PS8 is quite capable as evidenced by its extensive customer feedback and its reception by the audio and computer audio media.

One other reason was that a lot of people buy their goods based on reviews and recommendations. My experience showed that you just never know what a piece of equipment will do in your setup.

We agree on this point. Reviews whether they are from professionals or from individual web reports should just be used to develop a short list of products to evaluate in your own system. Personally I look for a pattern of good reports on a product from multiple print magazines, internet magazines and from customers on several different forums. When there is a general consensus of opinion, you can be relatively sure that the product should be considered. But that never guarantees a positive result in your own system.

Grant said that in his experience the Triton outperforms the P10 a lot of times especially with heavy loads. My experience was the exact opposite. In fact, the dealer who lend us the Triton, said that a big 400watt amp plus two active speakers was probably just too much for the Triton and that might be the reason why it gave such a poor performance.

Grant is correct and the feedback from worldwide distributors, dealers, multiple reviews and from customer feedback confirms his statement. I don't know who your dealer is but he doesn't know what he is talking about. There is NO multiple outlet power distributor, conditioner or regenerator that can deliver more continuous current than a Triton from a 15-20A power circuit. The Triton can deliver as much current as the power circuit is capable of providing. The circuit breaker in the wall will usually trip before the Triton runs out of current capacity. In the US many people have a 20A circuit and in the EU some people have a 16A circuit. That equates to continuous power ratings of 2400VA in the US and 3840VA in the EU. The P10 has a continuous rating of 1200VA in the US model.

What was the real reason it only gave about 40% of what the P10 gave? Who knows? Maybe my friends house has really poor AC. I really don't know. I only know he has a dedicated AC line. The Triton has many outlets. Maybe we used outlets by mere coincidence that were not burned in yet? Some weeks earlier we switched the pre-amp to a different outlet on the P10. It didn't sound right. A bit constricted in the mid lows. I guess you only burn in the outlets you use on a power distributor?

Which brings us to testing methodology. The conditions and procedures used to test products can dramatically affect the subjective outcome of the tests. This is a list of some of the things that we have learned over the years when testing power system products.

1) Make sure both products are fully burned in. Many power distributors like the Triton have massive copper buss systems and very heavy gauge internal wiring that require a significant current load over a couple of weeks to fully burn in. And yes, each power outlet needs to be burned in. This applies to power cords also.

2) Never test power distributors, conditioners and regenerators with both products plugged into the wall outlet at the same time. Power products interact with one another and the interaction can give you false results. For instance, when hooking the Triton to the system the p10 should be powered off and the power cord disconnected from the wall outlet. And vice-versa when testing the p10.

3) Do no stack one power product on top the other when testing.

4) Use the same power cord or the same type and model for the tests. The power cord can dramatically affect the outcome of the testing.

5) Put the power product on a proper platform, shelf or amp stand for the testing. Treat both products identically.

6) When shutting down an entire system to switch the power distributor - the components may take some time to fully settle back to normal operation after being turned off. Be sure to allow the components the same amount of time to fully warm up.

Bottom line;
We are all here to learn from each others experiences.
But the reality is that you can only decide to buy a piece of equipment based on your own experience.

Again we agree and you should be commended for actually trying more than one product before making a decision on what to use for your system. More people should do their own testing and not just rely a single review of comment from a website forum. Personally, I have no problem accepting your conclusion that the p10 worked better in your buddies particular system. You win some you loose some.

Oh, and thank you for using our power cords.

[CLEE]

Originally Posted by Glisse

... and the Cyclops is connected via the High Current (regenerator bypassed) output of a PS Audio P3, whose regenerated outputs power the source and peripheral equipment. I only have one AC line into this room, and the quality of the AC is highly compromised.

My understanding is that the HC output of the P10 (or P3) does not by-pass the regenerator. It only provides current rush moderation.

[Glisse]

Originally Posted by CLEE

My understanding is that the HC output of the P10 (or P3) does not by-pass the regenerator. It only provides current rush moderation.

No, the P3 does bypass the regenerator for HC output, but you are correct on the other models.

[sander]

[QUOTE="CGabriel;708572"] I don't know who your dealer is but he doesn't know what he is talking about. There is NO multiple outlet power distributor, conditioner or regenerator that can deliver more continuous current than a Triton from a 15-20A power circuit. The Triton can deliver as much current as the power circuit is capable of providing. END QUOTE]

In defense of my dealer: he's been in the business for more than 30 years. And he's not the only one who prefers to plug big poweramps straight to the wall.

As i understand even Shunyata sells the Cyclops because it could perform better on big amps than the Triton.

Sander

[Still-One]

Sander
Many of us prefer to plug amp direct into the wall.

Caelin's response wasn't really addressing that. He indicated "NO multiple outlet power distributor, conditioner or regenerator that can deliver more continuous current than a Triton from a 15-20A power circuit." He is just saying the Triton will pass whatever the circuit makes available at the plug and no other product delivers more than that.

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Sander Many of us prefer to plug amp direct into the wall. Caelin's response wasn't really addressing that. He indicated "NO multiple outlet power distributor, conditioner or regenerator that can deliver more continuous current than a Triton from a 15-20A power circuit." He is just saying the Triton will pass whatever the circuit makes available at the plug and no other product delivers more than that.

Correct. We usually recommend that high power amplifiers connect directly to the wall outlet IF you have a second dedicated line for exclusive amp use. If you only have a single power circuit then the Triton will work just fine with amplifiers plugged into it. The Triton is designed to minimize DTCD loss however any multiple outlet distribution unit will decrease DTCD due to the additional wiring, buss system and associated connection terminals. A Triton is a passive device and does not consume power or generate heat. Therefore it is very reliable and it has a lifetime warranty. All regenerators consume power which decreases the continuous power available for the system. A regenerator can deliver brief bursts of power depending upon the storage capacity of its capacitors if it is lightly loaded. But when power amplifiers are plugged in that reserve is dissipated. A regenerator can work quite well when lightly loaded with source components.

The HYDRA CYLOPS was created specifically for amplifiers and that is what we recommend. But it also works best if you have a second dedicated line for the amplifiers. If you have very high power amplifiers, the best performance investment is to install a dedicated line for them and connect them directly to the wall.

[ariess]

Hi Caelin,

I am a bit confused about your response as it seems to say that amplifiers (with a dedicated circuit) are best direct into the wall or best through a Hydra Cyclops. Which is it?

Adam

[BlueFox]

Might be system dependent. I found the Cyclops are much better than direct to wall.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Lumin S1
Pass XP-20 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 speakers

Shunyata Triton v2/Typhon for source, Cyclops v2 (2) for amps
Shunyata Z Anaconda XLR analog ICs, Z Anaconda speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Revelation Audio Passage Cryo-Silver Reference DB-25 umbilical power cable

Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by ariess

Hi Caelin, I am a bit confused about your response as it seems to say that amplifiers (with a dedicated circuit) are best direct into the wall or best through a Hydra Cyclops. Which is it? Adam

It is a conditional situation depending upon context. The following advice applies primarily to amplifiers not source equipment. Amplifiers are affected more than other components due to the amount of current that they require for best performance. This applies to in-room power components not service entrance power solutions such as whole house isolation transformers. And this is my opinion from my professional experience.

Situation A:
You have at least two dedicated lines, one for source equipment and one or two for the amplifiers.

Situation B:
You no dedicated lines or just one.

For SitA plug the amps directly into the wall. Any and every distributor or conditioner or regenerator or transformer will decrease DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery) to some degree. Some more or less than others. So the best performance will be gained by plugging the amps directly into their dedicated line. The best method to compare the performance of a power device is by comparing it to the wall outlet not comparing to another power conditioner. Most power conditioners will decrease dynamics mildly to radically depending the design of the device.

So plugging the amps directly into the wall is a good baseline solution - you may improve upon that performance with one of the following solutions.

You can improve upon SitA by adding noise reduction with a Hydra Cyclops. The Cyclops was designed specifically to power one or two power amplifiers without decreasing DTCD. This is accomplished by avoiding the use of coils, transformers and ferrite and minimizing the use of terminal strips, distribution busses, switches and breakers while maximizing the current carrying capacity of the internal conductors.

We have recently introduced a lower cost solution called the Venom AMP-1 that is designed for a single component like an amp or video projector.

You can also reduce power line noise without adding any in-line power device by plugging a Venom Defender into the second outlet at the wall where the amp is plugged in.

And last you can avoid the use of any power conditioner even if you have several components by installing quad-plexes in the wall instead of duplexes. With two dedicated lines you can have 8 outlets available without any intermediate power device. Plug a Venom Defender into one of the 4 outlets for noise reduction and local surge protection.
------
For SitB where you only have a single power circuit you must accept the fact that there are compromises compared SitA. Unless you only have two components in your system you must have some form of power distribution. That means you need some kind of power strip that has multiple outlets at minimum. Using common computer power strips is particularly harmful to DTCD and the associated power quality. At minimum, you want high quality AC outlets and quality large gauge internal conductors and power distribution busses. All of our distributors including our least expensive Venom PS8 are designed using the DTCD analyzer to ensure the highest level of instantaneous current transfer. All are rated at a full 20 amps of continuous current output all use hydraulic electromagnetic breakers instead of fuses or thermal breakers.

With a single power circuit you can also install a quadplex as in SitA if you only need 4 outlets.

Adam, I hope that helps.

[taters]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Sander
Many of us prefer to plug amp direct into the wall.

Caelin's response wasn't really addressing that. He indicated "NO multiple outlet power distributor, conditioner or regenerator that can deliver more continuous current than a Triton from a 15-20A power circuit." He is just saying the Triton will pass whatever the circuit makes available at the plug and no other product delivers more than that.

I have 2 dedicated lines and plug directly into the wall. I have never understood people buying expensive power conditioners and not having a dedicated line.