Dissapointing outcome comparison Shunyata Triton vs PS Audio P10 regenerator.

[sander]

Some time ago i asked Caelin the difficult question about his take on regenerators like the PS Audio P10.
With confidence he challenged me to compare the P10 with, not his flagship Triton but instead the cheaper Venom distributor.

So i did. (not really)
I thought it would be more fair to compare two distributors in the same price category.

So together with a good friend we compared the Shunyata Triton with a PS Audio P10.
Both items were a few years old so no issues with burn-in.

The setup was:
Source: Luxman D-08 cd player.
Pre-amp: Audio Research Reference 5 SE Poweramp: McIntosh MC452
Speakers: Martin Logan Vintage.
Signal cables by Cardas and Kimber. Powercables by PS Audio.

The Triton was connected to the wall with a brand new Shunyata Sigma HC or an older Python Zitron due to the C19 connector.
P10 was connected with PS Audio Premier SC.

Other than that everything was the same and everything was connected through the distributors. Inclusive the poweramp and both active speakers.

To make a long story short; this was no comparison really.
The PS Audio P10 blew the Triton away on all parameters.
The only thing we could think of saying something nice about the Triton was that it sounded really clean and lightfooted in the top-end.
But everything else, the soundstage, the control and speed (!) was in favor of the P10.
It turned the music into a live performance. While the Triton ... eh ... did not.

This was a big surprise for us. Because the big selling point of Shunyata is DTCD. "A regenerator could never deliver as much, as fast as a passive Venom or Triton because of this so called DTCD". This was exactly where the Triton let down and the P10 excelled!

The Triton played for four days but no significant improvement was noticed.

We noticed something else though.
Those Shunyata powercords are unbelievebly good. Especially that Sigma HC. I didn't sleep that night. I could not believe how much better it was than my allready excellent Python Zitron which on it self was allready better than the PS Audio powercords.

Why do i want to share my story here?

I know how much people love their Shunyata products. (so do i, i love my powercords)
But maybe (and this is just a thought) because Shunyata excells in making excellent powercords, doesn't mean they make the best power distributors.
Maybe, just maybe the reason why your system sound so good is not because of your Triton, it's because of your Anaconda's or your Sigma's.

Why did you buy your Triton? Because you had such a good experience with their powercords? Did you compare your Triton with some other distributor before you bought it?

Maybe your systeem could sound better, i mean much much better (i mean really much better) with a Regenerator like the P10.

Just a thought...


( ... but I'm going for the Shunyata powercable loom with a P10 Regenerator.)

Take care.
Sander.

[scirica]

Very interesting. I'm a big fan of my PS Audio P5. One of the most significant upgrades in my system. I'm also a big fan of WW Silver Electra 7 power cables.

[ariess]

My experience was different.

A few years ago I had a PS Audio Power Plant Premier (regenerator) and was curious about Shunyata. I went to my dealer and using all Audio Research Reference gear and Wilson Sasha speakers I compared the PPP to the Shunyata Talos (small version of Triton). For me the Shunyata sounded better. More natural, longer decays, more harmonic. I bought the Shunyata and sold the PS Audio. No regrets as I moved to the Triton and my system sounds amazing.

My hunch is that your experience probably has a lot to do with the quality of your power before the distributor. If your power was pretty terrible it could be better to regenerate. But if your power is relatively clean (I have dedicated circuits) it's probably better to filter than regenerate. Since most components run off of large capacitor banks regenerating strikes me as redundant at best and current limiting at worst.

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[BlueFox]

I haven't tried the PS Audio, so I can't comment on any perceived differences. However, from an abstract perspective the idea of an active component creating power is not appealing to me. First, it becomes another potential point of failure. Second, and worse IMO, is that the active components can degrade over time, and make the power worse, while the user is unaware their system is degrading.

------------------------------------------------------
Lumin S1
Pass XP-20 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 speakers

Shunyata Triton v2/Typhon for source, Cyclops (2) for amps
Shunyata Z Anaconda XLR analog ICs, Z Anaconda speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Revelation Audio Passage Cryo-Silver Reference DB-25 umbilical power cable

Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.

[scirica]

Originally Posted by BlueFox

I haven't tried the PS Audio, so I can't comment on any perceived differences. However, from an abstract perspective the idea of an active component creating power is not appealing to me. First, it becomes another potential point of failure. Second, and worse IMO, is that the active components can degrade over time, and make the power worse, while the user is unaware their system is degrading. ------------------------------------------------------ Lumin S1 Pass XP-20 pre, X600.5 amps Magico S5 speakers Shunyata Triton v2/Typhon for source, Cyclops (2) for amps Shunyata Z Anaconda XLR analog ICs, Z Anaconda speaker cables Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables Revelation Audio Passage Cryo-Silver Reference DB-25 umbilical power cable Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers Three 20 amp circuits.

All the named components are subject to wear. I believe your thesis is possible, but not likely based on evidence. They are both quality power delivery systems.

[ariess]

Originally Posted by sander

Some time ago i asked Caelin the difficult question about his take on regenerators like the PS Audio P10. With confidence he challenged me to compare the P10 with, not his flagship Triton but instead the cheaper Venom distributor. So i did. (not really) I thought it would be more fair to compare two distributors in the same price category. So together with a good friend we compared the Shunyata Triton with a PS Audio P10. Both items were a few years old so no issues with burn-in. The setup was: Source: Luxman D-08 cd player. Pre-amp: Audio Research Reference 5 SE Poweramp: McIntosh MC452 Speakers: Martin Logan Vintage. Signal cables by Cardas and Kimber. Powercables by PS Audio. The Triton was connected to the wall with a brand new Shunyata Sigma HC or an older Python Zitron due to the C19 connector. P10 was connected with PS Audio Premier SC. Other than that everything was the same and everything was connected through the distributors. Inclusive the poweramp and both active speakers. To make a long story short; this was no comparison really. The PS Audio P10 blew the Triton away on all parameters. The only thing we could think of saying something nice about the Triton was that it sounded really clean and lightfooted in the top-end. But everything else, the soundstage, the control and speed (!) was in favor of the P10. It turned the music into a live performance. While the Triton ... eh ... did not. This was a big surprise for us. Because the big selling point of Shunyata is DTCD. "A regenerator could never deliver as much, as fast as a passive Venom or Triton because of this so called DTCD". This was exactly where the Triton let down and the P10 excelled! The Triton played for four days but no significant improvement was noticed. We noticed something else though. Those Shunyata powercords are unbelievebly good. Especially that Sigma HC. I didn't sleep that night. I could not believe how much better it was than my allready excellent Python Zitron which on it self was allready better than the PS Audio powercords. Why do i want to share my story here? I know how much people love their Shunyata products. (so do i, i love my powercords) But maybe (and this is just a thought) because Shunyata excells in making excellent powercords, doesn't mean they make the best power distributors. Maybe, just maybe the reason why your system sound so good is not because of your Triton, it's because of your Anaconda's or your Sigma's. Why did you buy your Triton? Because you had such a good experience with their powercords? Did you compare your Triton with some other distributor before you bought it? Maybe your systeem could sound better, i mean much much better (i mean really much better) with a Regenerator like the P10. Just a thought... ( ... but I'm going for the Shunyata powercable loom with a P10 Regenerator.) Take care. Sander.

Sander, you posted a couple of months ago that you were mad at Shunyata about prices and that they had "just lost a potential customer". I hate to sound like a psychologist but is there any chance your evaluation was affected by your expressed anger at Shunyata

"I wonder what you are thinking? "It's better to sell one $4000 cable instead of two $3500 cables"? I think this is a mistake.

You just lost a potential custumor.



Greetings,
Sander from the Netherlands. "



I think i'll start on a new hobby; fishing.

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[j3brow]

Thx for sharing your experience. I am not surprised. The P10 is a formidable opponent. I would imagine it would be hard to beat the P10 although I have never done a shoot out myself. I have enjoyed PS Audio regenerators for years now, currently I own a pair of P10's. It's the foundation of my system. I wouldn't want to listen without my P10s.

[cma29]

I own the Shunyata Cyclops for my amps and the Hydra 4 α for my sources

[sander]

Originally Posted by ariess

. I hate to sound like a psychologist but is there any chance your evaluation was affected by your expressed anger at Shunyata Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

Not a chance.
You got to give me more credit than that.
Remember that there were two if us doing this test. And don't forget, as i was dissapointed with the Triton, at the same time i was overwhelmed with the quality of the Sigma.

My 'expressed anger' was kindly adressed by Grant and other members of this forum. I realize now that my frustration lies at the unfortunate inflation of euro vs dollar.
So I'm not angry anymore, just sad.
But again, that has nothing to do with the outcome of this comparison.

If something sounds great, it sounds great. Nothing i can do about that. Otherwise i would be fooling myself.

Sander.

[Glisse]

Sander,

I have power conditioners from Shunyata, PS Audio, Burmester and Isotek. Where, how and why I use each one is entirely dependant on the system being used, and also the general quality of the AC line to that room.

To state the obvious, just because someone prefers product B to product A in a specific room with specific equipment doesn't mean the same would hold in a different room with different equipment. Particularly with regard to AC.

But it is always interesting to read of experiences, and be able to discuss them in a civilised manner, so thanks for your post.

In several cases, I use a mix of brands within the one system, off the same AC line. Every power conditioner manufacturer recommends NOT to mix brands. Whilst there are good reasons for this in a general sense, they are generalisations. In one system I have, I use a Shunyata Cyclops to power 2 high power SS mono block amplifiers - and the Cyclops is connected via the High Current (regenerator bypassed) output of a PS Audio P3, whose regenerated outputs power the source and peripheral equipment. I only have one AC line into this room, and the quality of the AC is highly compromised.

To be fair to Shunyata, both Caelin and Grant have on several occasions advised that the first step should always be to add a good quality, high current and dedicated AC line for the system. This seems to be relatively low cost in the US, where most residences are owned, relatively modern builds, and labour costs are not high. In Europe, where most properties are rented, can be hundreds of years old, and made from stone, and with high labour costs, this is not always a reasonable option.

My perception is that the Shunyata power conditioners cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They need to start with a decent base. I've read on this forum the lengths Caelin went to, to optimise the quality of their AC line into their listening rooms, before reaching any power conditioners or AC cables. I do not believe they develop any of their equipment using poor quality AC lines. They need a good foundation on which to "build their house". If the quality of the AC line is poor, I feel the PS Audio and Isotek regenerators may be a better option.

I don't own a Triton, although have listened to one quite extensively. At the risk of offending everyone, I have the view that it is an incomplete system until used with a Typhon.

The optimum Shunyata power conditioning system would seem to be a Triton for sources, a DPC-6 for peripherals, a Cyclops for power amps and a couple of Typhons to provide the optimum level of NIC filtering. But I have neither the space, not the budget, for 6 boxes. Personally, a big box that did everything would be much more appealing to me.

I completely agree with your comments on the Sigma HC power cable. As I have said before, I value it more highly than any of my power conditioners, regardless of brand