Guide to Speaker Placement

[bigblue]

Venere, why is playing along the long wall not a "good way to set up the system"? IMO that is the BEST way to set up a system if you can as you get less interference from the side walls. I have a room that is 7 by 5,5 meters and I have the speakers along the long wall. Would not have it any other way even if I could :-)

[Rex Anderson]

Basics of Room Setup -

RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Rex Anderson

Basics of Room Setup -

RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

Well if you are selling room treatments, that's a pretty good start. But even then and to GIK's credit, you have very loose guidelines not rules, simply because rooms are almost never acoustic cuboids. Like it or not, there are many rooms where long wall positioning is the correct choice for the overall best performance.

ymmv.

[Rex Anderson]

I'm not selling room treatment, I don't sell anything. Both of those links talk about basic principals of small room acoustics. I also believe in LEDE and RFZ principals because they have worked well for me in recording control rooms I have worked in and my personal home listening room.

Of course all rooms aren't cuboids. Bigblue asked why playing along the long wall not a "good way to set up the system"? The two links I referenced answer that question.

If you can show me TEF or SMAART measurements that show better (flatter/more neutral) frequency response curves with optimized listener and speaker positions with speakers on the long wall than on on the short wall in a room, I'll would love to see them.

I trust my ears to a degree, but when I can, I prefer to use measurements and see data. I'm open to seeing examples if you have some.

I like this reference: http://amroc.andymel.eu/?l=23&w=16&h=10&ft=true&r60=0.6 and another one from Real Traps: http://realtraps.com/modecalc.htm for seeing how dimensions/ratios affect room modes.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Rex Anderson

I'm not selling room treatment, I don't sell anything. Both of those links talk about basic principals of small room acoustics. I also believe in LEDE and RFZ principals because they have worked well for me in recording control rooms I have worked in and my personal home listening room.

Of course all rooms aren't cuboids. Bigblue asked why playing along the long wall not a "good way to set up the system"? The two links I referenced answer that question.

If you can show me TEF or SMAART measurements that show better (flatter/more neutral) frequency response curves with optimized listener and speaker positions with speakers on the long wall than on on the short wall in a room, I'll would love to see them.

I trust my ears to a degree, but when I can, I prefer to use measurements and see data. I'm open to seeing examples if you have some.

I like this reference: amroc - the room mode calculator and another one from Real Traps: RealTraps - ModeCalc for seeing how dimensions/ratios affect room modes.

You're not selling room treatments but GIK is. And no those links do not categorically deny that the long wall is a possibility. They say it is not their ideal or their first choice. As I said, kudos to them for not falling on the sword of absolutes without accounting for the real world listening room variables involved. Speaker set up in a room is nothing if not problem solving.

Perhaps you could define your optimized speaker and listener positions in any given room. Don't forget to account for all rebates and intrusions into the room as well as all large room add ins (sofas, desks, tables, over stuffed chairs, armoirs, half walls, missing walls, returns, etc) without ever seeing them. Again, you discuss the luxury of being able to optimize a listening room far beyond the real world listening rooms of most audio system owners. Yet understanding how to make things work in a compromised room situation allows music loving enthusiasts to enjoy their systems. The luxury of studio design and build precision doesn't exist very often in the real world of consumer audio.

To abuse a quote from an acerbic old Scotsman "If it sounds good, it is good." Perhaps a bit simplistic, but to the point. The corollary is even more relevant: if it sounds bad, it is bad. No amount of measured flat frequency response lipstick on that pig will make it sound good. Which speaker/listening position really does give the best response in the frequency domain? Extended, muddy but flat measured output bass or articulate, detailed natural bass that rolls a few hz earlier? Perhaps more information is needed than simplistic measurements. I would submit there's a whole lot more to it once reasonable frequency response is in place. Ignore the details the room tells you at your peril.

Last question. LEDE? Really? I get why some like it but natural? Yikes!

As always, ymmv.

[tima]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

...

To abuse a quote from an acerbic old Scotsman "If it sounds good, it is good."...

Duke McEllington ?

:-)

[Rex Anderson]

I'm fairly new here and I did not come to stir up the pot. I come in peace!

Just thought I'd share my knowledge and experience as a guy who has spent 40 years as a recording and live sound engineer. I listen to music for a living.

My definition of optimized speaker and listener positions in any given room is the same as the guidelines set forth by other audio professionals, acousticians, recording and mastering engineers.

The listener should sit at the apex of an equilateral triangle, speakers toed in, tweeters at ear level. Speakers should be placed in the room to avoid boundaries that influence their response (walls and corners) and at the location that produces the least amount of room influence (modes that cause peaks and dips in frequency response). I prefer speakers that measure well and then use acoustic treatment to minimize the effect the room has on the interaction with the speaker and the listener. Minimizing first reflections, using bass traps to control bass build up and using diffusion to spread sound from the rear wall is standard practice for recording and mastering studio control rooms where engineers want truth from their monitors and monitoring environment.

I understand most home listening rooms can't accommodate these products or home owners don't want to use them because they don't look great.

However, I think audio aficionados should be aware of the effect a room has on the listening experience and do what they can to get the best sound from their systems.

[Patrick Butler]

"Speaker set up in a room is nothing if not problem solving."

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

Originally Posted by metaphacts

You're not selling room treatments but GIK is. And no those links do not categorically deny that the long wall is a possibility. They say it is not their ideal or their first choice. As I said, kudos to them for not falling on the sword of absolutes without accounting for the real world listening room variables involved. Speaker set up in a room is nothing if not problem solving.

Perhaps you could define your optimized speaker and listener positions in any given room. Don't forget to account for all rebates and intrusions into the room as well as all large room add ins (sofas, desks, tables, over stuffed chairs, armoirs, half walls, missing walls, returns, etc) without ever seeing them. Again, you discuss the luxury of being able to optimize a listening room far beyond the real world listening rooms of most audio system owners. Yet understanding how to make things work in a compromised room situation allows music loving enthusiasts to enjoy their systems. The luxury of studio design and build precision doesn't exist very often in the real world of consumer audio.

To abuse a quote from an acerbic old Scotsman "If it sounds good, it is good." Perhaps a bit simplistic, but to the point. The corollary is even more relevant: if it sounds bad, it is bad. No amount of measured flat frequency response lipstick on that pig will make it sound good. Which speaker/listening position really does give the best response in the frequency domain? Extended, muddy but flat measured output bass or articulate, detailed natural bass that rolls a few hz earlier? Perhaps more information is needed than simplistic measurements. I would submit there's a whole lot more to it once reasonable frequency response is in place. Ignore the details the room tells you at your peril.

Last question. LEDE? Really? I get why some like it but natural? Yikes!

As always, ymmv.

[chessman]

Originally Posted by Rex Anderson

I'm fairly new here and I did not come to stir up the pot. I come in peace! Just thought I'd share my knowledge and experience as a guy who has spent 40 years as a recording and live sound engineer. I listen to music for a living. My definition of optimized speaker and listener positions in any given room is the same as the guidelines set forth by other professionals: acousticians, recording and mastering engineers. The listener should sit at the apex of an equilateral triangle, speakers toed in, tweeters at ear level. Speakers should be placed in the room to avoid boundaries that influence their response (walls, corners) and at the location that produces the least amount of room influence (modes that cause peaks and dips in frequency response). I prefer speakers that measure well and use acoustic treatment to minimize the effect the room has on the interaction with the speaker and the listener. Minimizing first reflections, using bass traps to control bass build up and using diffusion to spread sound from the rear wall is standard practice for recording studio control rooms where engineers want truth from their monitors and monitoring environment. I understand most home listening rooms can't accommodate these products or home owners don't want to use them because they don't look great. However, I think audio aficionados should be aware of the effect a room has on the listening experience and do what they can to get the best sound from their systems.

Good post.

[Rex Anderson]

Thanks chessman. I have had the good fortune in my career to work with and learn from some very smart and talented guys. I spent a few days with Bob Katz (Digital Domain mastering engineer) asking questions and learning about mastering while he worked his magic on two CD projects I recorded. I highly recommend his book, "Mastering Audio: The Art and Science". http://www.digido.com/

While I was Audio Director for the University of Illinois School of Music, we hired Doug Jones, Emeritus Professor and co-founder of the Audio Arts and Acoustics program at Columbia College in Chicago, to consult on acoustic treatment for three of our recording control rooms. I also hired Doug to design a 5.1 surround mastering studio/theater in my home. Doug is a Heyser Award winner, a brilliant man and a great guy to hang out with while enjoying some good wine or scotch.

Emeritus Professor Doug Jones Introduces: “Heyser Archives Online” | Audio Arts and Acoustics

Professsor Doug Jones Wins 2006 TEF Heyser Award | Creative Planet Network

I credit these two fine gentlemen for helping me learn more about audio and acoustics.