System Synergism

[gregswaim]

Naim Audio is one those that feel with their brand you must keep it all in the family by requiring the use of a BNC connection between components. You can still get the adapter to hook up other non-Naim components but it's like they've made it hard to do so. They claim that the BNC is sonically superior to RCA's/XLR's. People vote with their pocket books, so Naim finally began offering RCA/XLR connections for the electronics so it would be easier to use different brands without having to buy a special adapter for each non-Naim component added. Naim still has BNC connections on their products for those die hard Naim fans.

[jdandy]

2-Channel.......Obviously, every manufacturer would hope, and prefer your audio dollars be spent completely in their camp. That's a given. There is much engineering expertise invested in creating system synergy, features and operating convenience into a company's component line up in the hope that a total package will be the customer's ultimate decision.. You can be certain, as well, all companies are eye balling each other's gear searching for new ideas. That is the nature of all business.

Does Ayre, Lamm, or Mcintosh spend time wondering why Serge, you or me might select another manufacture's components? I don't think so. They are much to busy designing the next awesome products, producing their current line of gear, and promoting their products worldwide in hopes of establishing new customers.

[2-Channel]

Originally Posted by gregswaim

Naim Audio is one those that feel with their brand you must keep it all in the family by requiring the use of a BNC connection between components.

I suspect that Krell has attempted to create the same *all of our's* mindset with their "Cast" design, but they do allow for XLR/RCA connections as an alternative.

It is very interesting to see how few systems are comprised of one brand. I wonder how these high end brands account for this in their production. Serge owns an Ayre preamp and Lamm amps.

Do these companies make matching systems in their production equation [i.e. 10 stereo amps, 10 preamps, 20 monoblock amps, 10 CD players]? If so, Serge has created an imbalance in their inventory. I know. This is one situation, but I am just trying to understand what happens to the Ayre monoblock amps that Serge did not purchase IF manufacturers produce matching systems.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by 2-Channel

Agreed. This is about pushing the envelope.

I am not going out on a limb when I say that we are all quite impressed with Serge's ability to squeeze that little extra from a component by mating it with another component better suited to achieve this ultimate extraction.

That said, lets assume that Ayre and/or Lamm have read your in-depth findings, and they agree with me/us that you are a very legitimate voice.

How do you think they would they respond to your findings in private?

Would Ayre and/or Lamm be wondering what they missed in their design that would have left the door open for another high end brand to take their spot in a high end system with one of their components?

Would they merely say this is completely subjective?

Would they accept this as normal since so many of the Stereophile reviewers have mixed reference systems?

Do these high end companies expect you/me/us to buy all one brand or do they anticipate mixed assemblages?

Just like there is no universal speaker that will please all listeners, there is no universal amp that will drive all speakers with great synergy. Also while some universal rules of what a great design that balances performance with life span and longevity/reliability apply to every component, many high end audio manufacturers will find ways to push the design envelope further and apply their own design philosophies to a project.

Then there is also the issue of selection of components, topology, voicing, etc.. You can't really compare a mass produced, high volume product to a "boutique" product. You will often not find exotic components found inside a low sales volume product in a high sales volume product because of many reasons such as cost, availability and even future supply concerns. McIntosh for example will not use components from small, exotic parts suppliers because the bean counters will not allow that. There is also the question of replacement parts availability down the road, something McIntosh has to worry about while others may not.

McIntosh has many people the designers answer to, Vladimir Lamm for example has only himself to answer to. If he chooses to use some obscure and hard to obtain tube, resistor, capacitor or attenuator pot in his design that will increase performance, he will do it while the designer at McIntosh will not be able to. The same can be said about design principles. McIntosh is built to last 30 or more years, I doubt Vladimir is concerned with that kind of a life span of his components. Or take a much smaller company such as Ayre for example, McIntosh would not be in a position to carve the chassis of their components from solid block of aluminum since it is time consuming and not very cost efficient since they have the bean counters watching over them to cover the overhead expenses of employing so many people and reaching a certain profit margin.

Since so many different design goals that must be weighted and balanced in the long run will affect the end result of what we hear, some brands will appeal to every one out there on a different level.

Just like our expectations and tolerances vary, so will the choice of our gear and brand selection. You can expect a Lexus to deliver 200,000 miles or more during its lifespan, I doubt you would expect that from say a Lotus. While it would be reasonable to expect a Lotus to reach at least 150 mph, you would not expect that from a Lexus. You can expect a Lexus to carry 5 passengers but not the Lotus, etc... I used that as an example because Lotus actually uses a Toyota (Lexus) engine.. but I think you get my point.

Lamm does not care about flexibility of their preamps being a purist design to the end for example, while a typical McIntosh customer would not be very interested in a product that offers none of the flexibility of a typical McIntosh preamp. So who is right and who is wrong? Did one brand miss something or do they care that I for example find the Lamm or Ayre more to my taste? After all, McIntosh caters to a much broader audience while Lamm caters to a much narrower base of customers and followers. At the end of the day, if the sales are coming in, everyone is happy and will probably continue on with their design philosophies.

[2-Channel]

Originally Posted by PHC1

...while Lamm caters to a much narrower base of customers and followers.

Always a treat to read your posts. As for Lamm's diminutive size as a company, how do they project manufacturing quotas when their clientel do show the potential to mix components [such as you have done]?

Is their production an ongoing, build to order affair?


---------Hijacking my own thread----------

While reading the replies in this thread, I got to thinking that order of purchase has not been discussed. Since speakers are ultimately the last link in the chain, should they be the first item purchased? Should the highest percentage of money be allocated to the speakers [and supporting subwoofer if one goes that route]?

I figure that you have made these recent preamp A/B comparisons using your "Reference" speakers - speakers that I gather will be in your system for years to come.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by 2-Channel

Always a treat to read your posts. As for Lamm's diminutive size as a company, how do they project manufacturing quotas when their clientel do show the potential to mix components [such as you have done]?

Is their production an ongoing, build to order affair?


---------Hijacking my own thread----------

While reading the replies in this thread, I got to thinking that order of purchase has not been discussed. Since speakers are ultimately the last link in the chain, should they be the first item purchased? Should the highest percentage of money be allocated to the speakers [and supporting subwoofer if one goes that route]?

I figure that you have made these recent preamp A/B comparisons using your "Reference" speakers - speakers that I gather will be in your system for years to come.

While the smaller companies may have some inventory, most of the products are built to order. Both times I ordered from Ayre, I had to wait until my units were built. Since I also ordered them in black, it delayed the process even further.

Over the years I have followed the method of starting out with speakers that will work well in your room and appeal to you sonically and aesthetically. Once that selection has been made an amp that will drive those speakers well and extract their potential is next. Everything else will follow that will compliment or tilt the system balance slightly in the direction you want it to go.

There is nothing worse than having speakers that don't work well in your room or if you can't give them the space they need to really open up and give you all they have. Many people seem to ignore that and fall into the trap of the bigger the speaker the better it will sound or if I get electrostats or magneplanars, I will still use them in the corners of the rooms and still be ok.

Some speakers are built with more or less a concept that budget gear may be driving them. Sonus Faber Domus line are a very forgiving speaker in that sense, I've heard them with Rotel and NAD and they sounded very musical. Those speakers will also impart a little too much sonic signature/darkness/sweetness and hold the rest of the gear behind them back from reaching their optimum. Very revealing speakers will allow the rest of the chain to shine but if one uses a budget amp that sounds grainy and lean, the results will be less than musical.

System synergy requires some thought, understanding and a planned budget to bring out the best. Believe me when I tell you that cables will also play an important role once a certain level is reached in your system. As will power conditioning and vibration isolation. Like they say, "Rome wasn't built overnight" and neither is a great system. It takes patience, research and often some trial and error before you nail a system that you will be blown away by.

I have some experience under my belt and having heard many components I can make some predictions of what will work and what is not for my preference. While my current system is great with the Sonus Faber, I pretty much know what to expect from the Wilson Sophia 2s that will be in my system next. I am certain the amps/preamp will be great but I am leaving my CDP and TT as well as cable option open at this point to make sure I will have room to tilt the system balance further to my liking.

[Gordon]

Serge I love the comment on stats! Sometimes the tweaking, at least on my part was when I had them pulled 5 feet into the room and 3 foot off the side walls, was hearing my wife say "are those staying there"? Once she sat down and listened to them pulled out then pushed into the corners where speakers "belong" she thought they need to be pulled back out!

Gordon

[JSCC]

Originally Posted by PHC1

There is nothing worse than having speakers that don't work well in your room or if you can't give them the space they need to really open up and give you all they have. Many people seem to ignore that and fall into the trap of the bigger the speaker the better it will sound


System synergy requires some thought, understanding and a planned budget to bring out the best. Believe me when I tell you that cables will also play an important role once a certain level is reached in your system. As will power conditioning and vibration isolation. Like they say, "Rome wasn't built overnight" and neither is a great system. It takes patience, research and often some trial and error before you nail a system that you will be blown away by.

I can attest to what Serge had said thru my experience with XRT30's, 2 pairs of MC1201's then 3 sets of MC2000's. While they are great components and surely would have yielded fantastic performances, they are expensive lessons in helping me understand clearly what "system synergy" is all about.

Now, I am blown away every night by a pair of "smaller size" speakers I never would have ever thought of owning. Nor would I had been able to walk away from an amp combo that weaves magic (yes, agree - the S$108k price tag did helped a lot ) and still be able to enjoy what the MC501's could offer.

I am still building my system and will have gears moving thru my life. However, I think the pace had slowed down significantly cause I seem to take an interest in enjoying my music every night than indulging in my habit of searching for "faults and excuses" on my system. And each time I played a disc, all I can say is - I really love this sound!

Audio nirvana, maybe. No future upgrades, not really. But for sure, I know I had one damn good sounding system today although it came after paying a very high price tag comprising of time, effort, money, pain and trial and error. I suppose this is part of learning and experiencing before one can have his enriching results. Maybe others would have taken a shorter path - still I would be happy to tell myself I have done it all - I hope!

[2-Channel]

Thanks everyone - your insights, ownership experiences, and the heart felt sharing of your passion for music makes this forum and these threads wonderful reads.

Moved to PS Audio ....

[Masterlu]

That's alot of questions, let's answer them over in PS Audio OK?