To Preamplify or not to Preamplify...that is the question.

[mgbaron]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

I'm anxious to hear what you discover mgbaron! I suspect you'll note the c2300 smooths out the sound considerably which "colors" the sound. I'd guess that without a pre is more "accurate" in your case, but with the pre is more pleasing.

That's what I would expect as well. Based on the other trials we have done, I'm pretty sure I like what the tubes from the C2300 add (or remove). However, the Bel Canto is supposed to have a nice analog stage, so who knows. Definitely worth a try.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by Cincy2

Yes. I pulled a Halcro DM8 out of the loop when I upgraded to a dCS DAC. I can't say what part of the substantial sound improvement was due to elimination of the pre but overall the sound gives me everything I want. The music I love (classical and acoustic jazz) lends itself to low power levels. My Vivaldi DAC has two analogue outputs (0-2V and 0-6V). I have never had to use the wider range on any recording.

Cincy

Thanks for sharing your experience. My w4s dac2 direct to amp actually push 100db+ with ease. I still find myself wanting for more smoothness which has me thinking about "one more upgrade" .

[-E-]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Cool. I will try that.

If you get bored and have a link to your favorite one it'll make me happy too .

MDA1k vs W4S DAC2

DAC Shootout

[djwhog]

I tried the K-03 direct to the 601s and I still prefer it running through the MX150 to the 601s.

I even tried it direct to my Woo amp to the headphones, and even then something in the MX150 then to the Woo amp has a slightly more realistic sound to me when driving the HD700s.

just my 2 cents...

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by Vesuvius

MDA1k vs W4S DAC2

DAC Shootout

Thanks Vesuvius!

The first link was a new read for me.

The second link was the reason I joined AA! I was in the throws of DAC decision making and enjoyed the DAC shootout thread very much. I didn't associate you with that thread perhaps because of your new avatar.

Both threads really do highlight what a DAC can do...with a preamp. What a fun read!!!!

I'd love to see the a similar shootout, but in a direct to DAC comparison, taking the preamplifier out of the equation.

As I'd like to stay in the $2000-$3000 used price range, options for me are:

-Upgrade the w4s dac2 to the DSDse and run direct
-buy the d100 (which in hindsight wasn't the last word in resolution, but was smooth and warm with a "decent" sound direct to amp. I dismissed it previously as I need a home theater bypass. I've thought about getting an analog to digital converter for the l & r channels of my home theater processor into the d100 as a "reverse engineered" solution to ht bypass.
-purchase a used c2300 (which does warm up the dac2 as I've heard, I wonder though if its at the expense of crisp detail. And it's more than my preferred budget)
-purchase a used c48, which I'd anticipate would produce a sound similar to the d100...maybe not. This would remedy the HT bypass and who knows, may lead me to experiment with vinyl
-find the holy grail DAC with home theater bypass, with an awesome analog preamp section, oh yeah and fully balanced with 8 subwoofer pre-outs, ht bypass, around $2000...and delivered to my house by the Loch Ness monster and his friend Bigfoot


I realize that a million dollar DAC (exaggerating) would smoke my humble dac2. For what it is, and its price range, it holds its own. And the most recent impressions of those who have done the DSDse upgrade claim it is revelatory. recently on the subject AA user has ditched his preamp in favor of how the dac2se sounds direct (when prior experience with the un modified dac2 wasn't ideal).

Where I keep coming back to is, what exactly does a preamp do for those who don't need to switch a bunch of sources. (Other than a tube setup which I think colors the sound for better or worse...)

[Rayooo]

As luck would have it, my GAT was down for a few days. (nothing serious, awaiting a replacement logic board, it's all back running now)

The last time I ran preamp-less was a few times with my W4S Dac-2. I'd done a couple experiments over a year or so. In each case, I much preferred the "color" that adding a preamp provided. (CJ in all cases)

I always liked and still do the DAC-2, I'd only wish I'd kept it and done the recent upgrades, but, it's gone and I've been running a D-07X which I very very much like.

So, being GAT-less, and experiencing serious music-withdral symptoms, last weekend I hooked the D-07X up direct for the first time, and began listening.

The short story here is that It was extremely good! Good enough that I had to ask myself "what do you need with that big expensive preamp anyway?"

The GAT is now back in service and all is once again status quo. The good news is that the GAT degrades nothing, and yet still does add just a hint of "enjoyment factor".

If someone would have asked me 6 months ago, I'd have been far more pro-preamp even in cases with a give DAC had great volume control capabilities. Today, I'm at the point where if I didn't already have the GAT, I'd have a real hard time justifying it's purchase except for multi-analog input switching.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by Rayooo

As luck would have it, my GAT was down for a few days. (nothing serious, awaiting a replacement logic board, it's all back running now)

The last time I ran preamp-less was a few times with my W4S Dac-2. I'd done a couple experiments over a year or so. In each case, I much preferred the "color" that adding a preamp provided. (CJ in all cases)

I always liked and still do the DAC-2, I'd only wish I'd kept it and done the recent upgrades, but, it's gone and I've been running a D-07X which I very very much like.

So, being GAT-less, and experiencing serious music-withdral symptoms, last weekend I hooked the D-07X up direct for the first time, and began listening.

The short story here is that It was extremely good! Good enough that I had to ask myself "what do you need with that big expensive preamp anyway?"

The GAT is now back in service and all is once again status quo. The good news is that the GAT degrades nothing, and yet still does add just a hint of "enjoyment factor".

If someone would have asked me 6 months ago, I'd have been far more pro-preamp even in cases with a give DAC had great volume control capabilities. Today, I'm at the point where if I didn't already have the GAT, I'd have a real hard time justifying it's purchase except for multi-analog input switching.

Great post. The D-07x sounds like a winner. Thanks for sharing.

[mgbaron]

After seeing this thread, I played around pretty extensively with my preamp (McIntosh C2300) in an out of the loop. I had played around with this previously while auditioning other DACs. At the time, the preamp was adding a lot and I really thought it was indispensable. I guess that's why I never tried taking it out of the loop once I got the Bel Canto (REFLink > St Fiber Cable > DAC 3.5vb MK II with VBS1 and VB-REF cable).

Well, I finally did tonight, and I must say that I was pretty surprised. I was expecting it to sound more fatiguing and "digital" with the tube preamp out of the loop, but in reality it sounded pretty close to what I am used to. I wouldn't describe the sound as fatiguing at all.

There were some differences, though more subtle than expected. With the preamp in the loop, the sound was slightly warmer, with longer decay. It sounded more "live" to my ear. I'm assuming this is primarily the effect of the tubes. One the other hand, I think without the preamp, there were slightly blacker backgrounds and perhaps (not totally sure about this yet) a tad more detail.

In the end, I think the reasons I'm sticking with the preamp are two-fold. First and foremost, though the difference was subtle, I found that I kept getting more drawn into the music when the preamp was in the loop. I listen to a lot of Jazz, and I think it really benefits from the more "live" sound. The second reason, which is purely practical, is that I do use the phono input on the preamp, and I'd rather not look for a replacement for the time being.

Like Rayooo, however, I can't help but wonder if the difference is really worth it. The money from my preamp sure could fund some other nice upgrades.

[jdebonth]

After many many trails, no preamp for me! Purest and most intimate sound is obtained by going direct with a DAC that has a great output stage and volume control.

[riley]

Every component in the chain affects the result but that doesn't necessarily mean that removing a component will provide a more desirable result just because you are removing a component from the chain. It is better to evaluate the sound with the preamp in the chain and then out of the chain and see which version of the sound is your preference.