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  #21  
Old 09-27-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
I tend to agree Art, besides I do enjoy reading J. Atkinson's technical side which helps to reinforce my basic belief that products that measure good have a real chance at sounding good whereas those that measure poorly rarely do.
With the exception that back when Audio Research started selling tube amps back in the late 70s, they measured much worse than a Crown DC300, but were unanimously agreed as sounding better than a Crown DC300 when they were actually listened to reproducing music rather than sine or square waves.

For example, how does one measure the way that a Stradivarius sounds differently than a Guanerius? Yet, we can all hear that they sound different in character and quality.
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  #22  
Old 09-27-2017, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by metaphacts View Post
I'm very familiar with metaphor 1s as well as the proper implementation of the R1, both physically and electrically. Subjective conclusions aside, the R1 is far from dynamically compressed.

To my ears the R1 suffers dynamically when crossed over too low, and even if it's not it needs a high order filter. Crossed over above 4kHz and 4th order L-R, it sounds nice enough, sure, but distortion is still much higher than the distortion from a diamond dome, even at 5 or 6kHz. Fwiw, I've measured both. I haven't measured the new D3 models but distortion from my D2's is astonishingly low above about 300Hz, and lowest in the 1-4kHz region, where it's well below 0.1% at around 90dB SPL.

What counts for 'dynamic' from a subjective standpoint is of course subjective, but I think it's the slight reticence in the presence region (1-3kHz) power response, synonymous with B&W, that creates an illusion of being less dynamic than some other speakers, although also subject to the listening environment of course.

Btw, I ended up using the RAAL ribbons instead of Raven's, and they're really quite something. Best ribbons I've heard by far.
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  #23  
Old 09-27-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Vandelay View Post
To my ears the R1 suffers dynamically when crossed over too low, and even if it's not it needs a high order filter. Crossed over above 4kHz and 4th order L-R, it sounds nice enough, sure, but distortion is still much higher than the distortion from a diamond dome, even at 5 or 6kHz. Fwiw, I've measured both. I haven't measured the new D3 models but distortion from my D2's is astonishingly low above about 300Hz, and lowest in the 1-4kHz region, where it's well below 0.1% at around 90dB SPL.

What counts for 'dynamic' from a subjective standpoint is of course subjective, but I think it's the slight reticence in the presence region (1-3kHz) power response, synonymous with B&W, that creates an illusion of being less dynamic than some other speakers, although also subject to the listening environment of course.

Btw, I ended up using the RAAL ribbons instead of Raven's, and they're really quite something. Best ribbons I've heard by far.
As with any tweeter, absolutes are irrelevant in the face of proper matching in a design. The Raven solution was to cross it at the correct frequency, match it with a timbrally similar driver, and position it where it belongs vertically in the array. The Ravens high sensitivity allows for the m1's 95.5dB overall sensitivity.

When the m1 was developed in 1996, the Raven had not yet been put into production. The original Raven design unit for the m1 utilized a separate transformer - this was before the Raven production which saw the transformer mounted on the rear. Production units arrived in time for the m1 introduction at CES.

I offer this only as background info since no one else seems to know anything about Alan's speakers.
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  #24  
Old 09-28-2017, 02:34 AM
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As with any tweeter, absolutes are irrelevant in the face of proper matching in a design.
Better to say 'of less relevance' than 'irrelevant', even allowing for the fact that it's an opinion. After all, if absolutes were irrelevant the need for a ribbon tweeter also becomes questionable.

Personally, I take the view that everything is relevant to some extent, where those extents are subject to individual personal preferences.

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Originally Posted by metaphacts View Post

I offer this only as background info since no one else seems to know anything about Alan's speakers.
And very appreciated. Unfortunately, google searching comes up with mostly blanks, apart from the 1994 Metaphor 2 Stereophile review.

Last edited by Art Vandelay; 09-28-2017 at 02:38 AM.
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  #25  
Old 09-28-2017, 06:49 AM
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Not to sound jaded, but who actually takes audio reviews seriously? I trust reviews on AA and AS why more than any journal.
I read the reviews for fun. The heavenly language that some are able to conjure up is truly a thing of beauty.
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  #26  
Old 09-28-2017, 12:40 PM
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..Personally, I take the view that everything is relevant to some extent, where those extents are subject to individual personal preferences..
Fair enough (italics mine).

I just read the review. I'm trying to figure out what all the fuss is about. There's not a negative word in the entire thing.
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  #27  
Old 09-28-2017, 09:13 PM
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I just read the review. I'm trying to figure out what all the fuss is about. There's not a negative word in the entire thing.
As I see them, the main shortcomings of the review:

Firstly, that the reviewer isn't familiar with the 800D3 predecessors and is unable to offer a personal opinion on subjective improvements, and secondly that he was similarly unable to offer opinion on how they compare with today's competition.

If I was looking to be picky I might also question the reviewer's overall level of objectivity, when he said.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by AT
"After living with the 800 D3 for several months, I switched back to my Metaphor 1 reference speakers to see what Iíd been missing".
What about what now is missing? Why wouldn't you listen for that too?

The reviewer also says.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by AT
"Frankly, considering my reference speakers sport Raven ribbon tweeters that extend pretty much to infinity, I expected a far more flagrant difference."
Again, as a reader I would hope for a review without such obvious preconceptions. Reviewers should be fully objective.

And the review finishes on this high note: "Needless to say, I highly recommend an audition of the 800 D3. Just donít expect to hear much."

I appreciate what the reviewer is saying - that the 800D3 is a very neutral sounding speaker, but as someone who has heard 800D3's, I was mostly struck more by how very much I was hearing - of the music itself, which at the end of the day is what it's all about.

In fairness though, the review isn't all bad and makes some very valid points to do with speaker placement and listening / boundary distances etc. But putting myself in the position of someone who is a prospective purchaser, the review doesn't offer too much, and if it doesn't that's a problem, because that's why the magazine exists.
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