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  #11  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:17 AM
Msegal Msegal is offline
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Ok I’m stepping up to the batters box.

There is no arguing the mathematical computation of what the speaker can handle.
There is no arguing that the most dynamic range can be produced by the highest peak SPL which will require more power.
There is no arguing that an amplifier with a high output impedance (tube, solid state or other) will have a less accurate frequency response than a low output impedance amplifier. The degree of aberration will be more with low impedance speakers (2-4 ohms) compared to higher impedance speakers (<8ohms). These inaccuracies can be ameliorated by different output taps such as those on an amplifier’s transformers.

The question is: does all one needs to hear in music found in those statistics?

I would argue that the inherent nature of most solid state amplifiers allows for a greater dynamic range due to their higher power output.
However, IMHO the life of the music, the subtle harmonics, the micro dynamics of the midrange, the subtle inflections of a voice, the detailed finger work on a guitar or piano is reproduced with higher fidelity using a tube amplifier. This will not be measured which any scientific instrument as none is as good as the human ear.

I am a very big fan of Harbeth speakers.
The demonstration presented was explained as being “more lifelike “ with the very high quality CH amplifiers using insane amounts of power.
It is impossible to make that evaluation over the internet.
I do know that most systems lack the dynamics of a live event and it is really impossible to reproduce all that a live event encompasses with two channel stereo.

I would much rather listen to a more involving less globally dynamic system then the opposite but if someone else prefers the globally dynamic system I would not argue the point.

I am not sure how long my ears would last at 106-110 dB of SPL. [emoji33]
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  #12  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:26 AM
JMD JMD is offline
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A quality Hybrid integrated might be the perfect solution if one still exists. At one point Blue Circle made one and I had great luck with my Reynauds and the Kora integrated when it was around.

https://www.stereophile.com/integrat...ora/index.html

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue3/explorer.htm

I've still got the Explorer 90 running in my office with Reynaud Twin Signatures or Nola Boxers.
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  #13  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:30 AM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msegal View Post
Ok I’m stepping up to the batters box.

There is no arguing the mathematical computation of what the speaker can handle.
There is no arguing that the most dynamic range can be produced by the highest peak SPL which will require more power.
There is no arguing that an amplifier with a high output impedance (tube, solid state or other) will have a less accurate frequency response than a low output impedance amplifier. The degree of aberration will be more with low impedance speakers (2-4 ohms) compared to higher impedance speakers (<8ohms). These inaccuracies can be ameliorated by different output taps such as those on an amplifier’s transformers.

The question is: does all one needs to hear in music found in those statistics?

I would argue that the inherent nature of most solid state amplifiers allows for a greater dynamic range due to their higher power output.
However, IMHO the life of the music, the subtle harmonics, the micro dynamics of the midrange, the subtle inflections of a voice, the detailed finger work on a guitar or piano is reproduced with higher fidelity using a tube amplifier. This will not be measured which any scientific instrument as none is as good as the human ear.

I am a very big fan of Harbeth speakers.
The demonstration presented was explained as being “more lifelike “ with the very high quality CH amplifiers using insane amounts of power.
It is impossible to make that evaluation over the internet.
I do know that most systems lack the dynamics of a live event and it is really impossible to reproduce all that a live event encompasses with two channel stereo.

I would much rather listen to a more involving less globally dynamic system then the opposite but if someone else prefers the globally dynamic system I would not argue the point.

I am not sure how long my ears would last at 106-110 dB of SPL. [emoji33]
All very good points. As I mentioned previously, with my 85dB listening preference for 95% of my listening, the first 5W are the most critical. I prefer the magic of tubes in that range of power or at least a good Class A if it is solid state. Of course that does not work for all people and all genres of music as some music really does sound best at a higher dynamic peaks. If my listening preference was Electronic Dance, House, Trance, or even Rock at "proper" levels where it stirs the soul and punches in the gut, a tube amp would be an unlikely partner for my Harbeth speakers at 85dB efficiency.
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  #14  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:45 AM
1KW 1KW is offline
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Serge

You and I had this conversation back in 2009 when I had my MC252 and you convinced me to upgrade to the MC501’s for headroom . I seem to remember saying I rarely go over 50 Watts . Well the first thing I noticed with the 501’s were better bass and better imaging. You can probably find that old thread here. I’m happy your thrilled with your new tube integrated amp. but you already know the answer to your own question. You also told me buy the 501,s and you will probably not think about upgrading your amp. And you were right. By the way the the McIntosh 501’s and 601’s are class A at your 5 watt level

Last edited by 1KW; 02-13-2018 at 12:48 AM.
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  #15  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:49 AM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1KW View Post
Serge

You and I had this conversation back in 2009 when I had my MC252 and you convinced me to upgrade to the MC501’s for headroom . I seem to remember saying I rarely go over 50 Watts . Well the first thing I noticed with the 501’s were better bass and better imaging. You can probably find that old thread here. I’m happy your thrilled with your new tube integrated amp. But you already know the answer to your own question
David, of course I remember! Aren't you glad you listened? In my case, I have no questions, I knew exactly what I wanted to try and am very happy with the PL "valve" amp. It is more than adequate for what I need it for and it will be a great partner for a smaller pair of Harbeth down the road and a fantastic headphone amp and that was my plan! In the mean time it is a great partner for the 30.2

Last edited by PHC1; 02-13-2018 at 12:52 AM.
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  #16  
Old 02-13-2018, 03:47 AM
mulveling mulveling is offline
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Funny the Harbethies get so offended by tube amps for being "outdated". Harbeth speakers are certainly very nice, and musical, but quite far from what most would consider on the "cutting edge" of speaker design. I'm speaking as a Tannoy owner with drivers based on a 1949 design, so no severe jabs meant by that

I run 275+ Watts/ch tubes on 96 dB/Watt speakers, so I never experience even a hint of strain, compression, or distortion at any level I might choose. In the past I've run the gamut of less power, down to 25 and 35 Watt tubes, and certainly I prefer the piece of mind, lifelike levels, precision, and lack of distortion/compression afforded by the almost ludicrous overhead. Yes I was shocked at first when I experienced just how much sound "level" I could get out of a meager 25 Watts @ 93 dB/Watt...but significantly more power is much, much better.

And yes, absolute power requirements go up VERY fast as decibels inch up. But my assertion is that +/-3dB to a experienced critical listener is extremely significant, indeed.

Last edited by mulveling; 02-13-2018 at 03:49 AM.
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  #17  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:38 AM
godwinaj godwinaj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1KW View Post
Serge

You and I had this conversation back in 2009 when I had my MC252 and you convinced me to upgrade to the MC501’s for headroom . I seem to remember saying I rarely go over 50 Watts . Well the first thing I noticed with the 501’s were better bass and better imaging. You can probably find that old thread here. I’m happy your thrilled with your new tube integrated amp. but you already know the answer to your own question. You also told me buy the 501,s and you will probably not think about upgrading your amp. And you were right. By the way the the McIntosh 501’s and 601’s are class A at your 5 watt level
No doubt more power gives more dynamic headroom. But, how much do you think design differences play into the sound difference. As you go up the McIntosh line you all features as well as specs.

I'd be interested in testing this with my Sim Audio 330A and dual 400M since they are basically the same unit just bridged. Anyone want to donate in the name of science? JK
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  #18  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:21 AM
Still-One Still-One is offline
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Not all watts are created equal. Try before you buy!!
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  #19  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:15 AM
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W9TR W9TR is offline
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Serge,
Interesting video. What was missing was a measure of how loud it was getting on peaks in the room.

The iPhone is an average reading device.

The calculator you linked ignores the room acoustics (live vs dead) and the size of the room so is inherently flawed. It won’t even be close and will overestimate the power you need.

A live room will get you significantly more level due to the reverberant sound field.

So your iPhone meter is probably closer than you think!

Tom
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  #20  
Old 02-13-2018, 11:51 AM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
Serge,
Interesting video. What was missing was a measure of how loud it was getting on peaks in the room.

The iPhone is an average reading device.

The calculator you linked ignores the room acoustics (live vs dead) and the size of the room so is inherently flawed. It won’t even be close and will overestimate the power you need.

A live room will get you significantly more level due to the reverberant sound field.

So your iPhone meter is probably closer than you think!

Tom
My room is on the power sapping, damped side with thick carpet and fabric couches and chairs. I tested again with the Radio Shack meter which measured 2dB lower than the iPhone for what it’s worth. In any case, the important test here was that the 70w in ultra linear mode is more than enough power for my typical listening and chances are this amp will be partnered with smaller Harbeth speakers in a much smaller room anyway.
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