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  #21  
Old 05-28-2019, 01:46 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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I have watched the first hour. Not sure how much there is but will finish it shortly.

I recently attended an AirShow at the Marine Corps Air Station - Beaufort SC. There was a Spitfire and a P-51. They called it the class of ‘47. IPhone pic attached.

I learned that for all its victories, the P-51 was a functional failure for the US Navy. The huge propeller and rearward seating position gave the pilots terrible forward vision when landing.

There were apparently lots of crashes on carriers. It was then decided to be a land based plane only.
Attachment 59185
It was a combination of things that prevented the Navy from adopting the P-51 for carriers. The biggest reason behind the use of the P-51 Mustang in naval operations was the need for B-29 escorts while bombing Japan. No naval fighter at the time had the range to accompany the B-29's so the P-51D was selected to determine if it could be a suitable carrier operator. There were quite a few modifications that needed to be made but the stall speed of 82 mph and the need to land at approx 90 mph was not an easy task to resolve. Not for the lack of trying either with tail hook, higher pressure tires, stronger frame, etc... The aborted landings and go arounds required careful throttle management as the power of the engine could easily torque roll the P-51 into a crash when applied abruptly as is often the case with aborted landings. By the time the P-51D could have been adopted the war was over... It worked out none the less in the Pacific Theater as the Hellcats, Bearcats and the Corsairs gave the Japanese hell.

Last edited by PHC1; 05-28-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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  #22  
Old 05-28-2019, 01:51 PM
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Default Spitfire: The Plane That Saved The World

As this topic is on my mind, I just googled why it wasn’t used by the Navy. Seems the test pilot Lt Robert Elder felt it was not suitable for a variety of reasons and visibility was not one of them. I got bum information from the MC at the AirShow. Main reasons were:

- Stall speed margin was extremely low, too low for safety :::As Serge mentions above ::::
- Rudder control at low speed and high angles of attack was inadequate
- Landing attitude had to be very carefully controlled to avoid airframe damage
- Go-arounds required slow throttle advancement. The extreme power of the Packard/Merlin engine meant that a high-power fast throttle advancement could put the aircraft into a roll or snap-roll. At low speeds this would prove a fatal mistake.

Only 25 launches/recoveries were made in the suitability trials and Lt. Elder did not believe that the Mustang had a place in carrier operations.
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  #23  
Old 05-28-2019, 01:54 PM
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In fact the testing of the P-51D for adaptation to aircraft carriers took place on Henry C. Mustin Naval Air Facility (IATA code MUV) also known as Mustin Field, Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. I believe they were still testing and modifying up until 1947. The war may have been over but the technological progress and preparedness never stops as we all know.
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  #24  
Old 05-28-2019, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
As this topic is on my mind, I just googled why it wasn’t used by the Navy. Seems the test pilot Lt Robert Elder felt it was not suitable for a variety of reasons and visibility was not one of them. I got bum information from the MC at the AirShow. Main reasons were:

- Stall speed margin was extremely low, too low for safety :::As Serge mentions above ::::
- Rudder control at low speed and high angles of attack was inadequate
- Landing attitude had to be very carefully controlled to avoid airframe damage
- Go-arounds required slow throttle advancement. The extreme power of the Packard/Merlin engine meant that a high-power fast throttle advancement could put the aircraft into a roll or snap-roll. At low speeds this would prove a fatal mistake.

Only 25 launches/recoveries were made in the suitability trials and Lt. Elder did not believe that the Mustang had a place in carrier operations.
Correct. There were more factors as one WWII vet told us at our local flying club. Back in the 80's and 90's the flying club was packed with WWII vets... I miss those guys... They are all gone now.
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  #25  
Old 05-28-2019, 02:24 PM
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If anyone is interested in seeing some of the best radio control, WWI, WWII, jets and other warbird models and pilots in action, Lums Pond State Park in Delaware is the place to be July 10-13. Fantastic event. Bring your kids/grandkids and enjoy the sights and sounds of the highly scale and truly magnificent recreations of the glorious warbirds. https://www.delawarerc.org/warbirds.htm
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  #26  
Old 05-28-2019, 05:25 PM
Mikado463 Mikado463 is offline
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If anyone is interested in seeing some of the best radio control, WWI, WWII, jets and other warbird models and pilots in action, Lums Pond State Park in Delaware is the place to be July 10-13. Fantastic event. Bring your kids/grandkids and enjoy the sights and sounds of the highly scale and truly magnificent recreations of the glorious warbirds. https://www.delawarerc.org/warbirds.htm
Thanks for the heads up Serge, I just might take the grandsons for a little journey !
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  #27  
Old 05-28-2019, 05:32 PM
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Thanks for the heads up Serge, I just might take the grandsons for a little journey !
You will both love it.
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  #28  
Old 05-28-2019, 09:38 PM
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Another top fighter of WWII was the P-47. One of the primary WWII training bases for same was Millville, NJ. They used to have an excellent air show at the airport each summer, but it has lost some of its glory as many of these old fighters have been crashed or don't get around the country to air shows as they used to. Same for the Willow Grove Naval Air Station. Sadly, most air shows ain't what they used to be.

Nearing the end of WWII the top Allied fighters and top German fighters were roughly equal in performance (other than the ME262). However, the Allies production and training of pilots so far outstripped what the Nazis could put out that they were simply overwhelmed in both machines and pilots and, especially, petrol, in their 2-front war. In the Pacific it was as bad for Japan, who had such a low regard for the safety of their pilots. By the time they started putting self-sealing fuel tanks and armor in their fighters their shortage of reasonably trained pilots was almost nil. While the kamikazes exacted a terrible toll, lucky for us their percentage of successful hits was quite low due to lack of decently trained pilots. Adm Yamamoto was most correct about awakening a tiger.

Among the many reasons that the Axis lost, their lack of resources was most prominent. Too bad the Wehrmacht generals would not accept unconditional surrender in the west. Who knows what the world would be like today if they had.
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  #29  
Old 05-28-2019, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Formerly YB-2 View Post
Another top fighter of WWII was the P-47. One of the primary WWII training bases for same was Millville, NJ. They used to have an excellent air show at the airport each summer, but it has lost some of its glory as many of these old fighters have been crashed or don't get around the country to air shows as they used to. Same for the Willow Grove Naval Air Station. Sadly, most air shows ain't what they used to be.

Nearing the end of WWII the top Allied fighters and top German fighters were roughly equal in performance (other than the ME262). However, the Allies production and training of pilots so far outstripped what the Nazis could put out that they were simply overwhelmed in both machines and pilots and, especially, petrol, in their 2-front war. In the Pacific it was as bad for Japan, who had such a low regard for the safety of their pilots. By the time they started putting self-sealing fuel tanks and armor in their fighters their shortage of reasonably trained pilots was almost nil. While the kamikazes exacted a terrible toll, lucky for us their percentage of successful hits was quite low due to lack of decently trained pilots. Adm Yamamoto was most correct about awakening a tiger.

Among the many reasons that the Axis lost, their lack of resources was most prominent. Too bad the Wehrmacht generals would not accept unconditional surrender in the west. Who knows what the world would be like today if they had.
If the Wehrmacht generals surrendered, we probably would not have had "operation paperclip" and would not have beat the Soviets to the moon for starters. After all, the 1600 top German engineers that were brought here added so much to our progress... Wernher von Braun and his V-2 rocket team alone was an incredible addition of engineering talent, even if some of them were leaders of the Nazi party...
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2019, 12:07 AM
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These were taken in 2009, when we had a fly-in to Corvallis Airport, an annual tradition held in conjunction with the Rose Festival further north. Gave me the opportunity to get up close and personal with these warbirds, particularly with the B-17 and B-24 that I was able to crawl through--"crawl" being the operative verb. That made me appreciate a bit better what those aircrews had to put up with even before they had to contend with Flak 88s, ME-109s, and FW-190s.





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