DCS Rossini

[audioguy3107]

BillK, yes, check a couple of pages back, I received my clock about 2 weeks before the transport and it did indeed make a nice difference. I disagree a bit about the DAC without the clock, I thought it sounded excellent by itself, but you're right, it was the icing on the cake with it no doubt. I'm pretty happy to be "done" with my digital front end.

- Buck

[BillK]

The thing is, without the clock, the Rossini is definitely not better than my Wadia S7i. Piano is wrong, and soundstage and ambience are missing by comparison.

With the clock, it surpasses the Wadia's sense of space and finally gets piano right.

That impulse sound of a piano key being struck should not be metallic at all, it should sound like a felt hammer hitting the string.

That is what the vast majority of DACs get wrong, including the Bartok and the Rossini without the clock; the Rossini with Rossini Clock is one of the first I've heard outside of the Vivaldi stack to get it right that didn't have a Wadia logo on the front; the last was actually an old Pioneer Laserdisc player that apparently was a subject of litigation between Pioneer and Wadia.

I have a track I use to demo this and I have been able to walk out of demos of almost every DAC after less than ten seconds simply by hearing how they handle this.

[audioguy3107]

Originally Posted by BillK

The thing is, without the clock, the Rossini is definitely not better than my Wadia S7i. Piano is wrong, and soundstage and ambience are missing by comparison.

With the clock, it surpasses the Wadia's sense of space and finally gets piano right.

That impulse sound of a piano key being struck should not be metallic at all, it should sound like a felt hammer hitting the string.

That is what the vast majority of DACs get wrong, including the Bartok and the Rossini without the clock; the Rossini with Rossini Clock is one the first I've heard outside of the Vivaldi stack to get it right that didn't have a Wadia logo on the front; the last was actually an old Pioneer Laserdisc player that apparently was a subject of litigation between Pioneer and Wadia.

I have a track I use to demo this and I have been able to walk out of demos of almost every DAC after less than ten seconds simply by hearing how they handle this.

Bill - That's really interesting......do you have a couple of go-to piano tracks that you use when evaluating like this? I'd like to check it out on my system.

- Buck

[imprezap2]

Originally Posted by BillK

The thing is, without the clock, the Rossini is definitely not better than my Wadia S7i. Piano is wrong, and soundstage and ambience are missing by comparison.

With the clock, it surpasses the Wadia's sense of space and finally gets piano right.

That impulse sound of a piano key being struck should not be metallic at all, it should sound like a felt hammer hitting the string.

That is what the vast majority of DACs get wrong, including the Bartok and the Rossini without the clock; the Rossini with Rossini Clock is one the first I've heard outside of the Vivaldi stack to get it right that didn't have a Wadia logo on the front; the last was actually an old Pioneer Laserdisc player that apparently was a subject of litigation between Pioneer and Wadia.

I have a track I use to demo this and I have been able to walk out of demos of almost every DAC after less than ten seconds simply by hearing how they handle this.

I definitly have a different experience with Wadia, great players at the time, had the 381i (and temporary S7i) in my own system and both could not compete with the Rossini Player. In my system I prefer the Rossini player without the extra clock as the soundstage moves about two meters closer to the listening position, I have to say I did not try different clock cables. (used the cables supplied by dCS.)

nice to see so many dCS users.

Would like to know which settings are being used, will start off with mine.

Analogue conversion -->Mapper 1
Line output --> 6 Volt (RCA)
Upsampling --> DXD
Filter --> F5 (F1 for DSD)
Buffer --> on (off for Blu ray or DVD)

(Ansuz D2 power cable, Ansuz interconnect P2)

[BillK]

Originally Posted by audioguy3107

Bill - That's really interesting......do you have a couple of go-to piano tracks that you use when evaluating like this? I'd like to check it out on my system.

- Buck

The one that is the one I use to be able to tell within ten seconds is Amy Grant's version of Jimmy Webb's If These Walls Could Speak from Lead Me On (A&M cd 5199) in 1988.

Sadly there was a remaster of the disc in 2007 that completely destroyed the track and its usefulness for testing audio equipment.

I've never come across a track that made it more obvious, and you must use the track from the original CD release, either from A&M or Myrrh 7016871614.

As I said, of DACs I've tested personally and at shows, only Wadia DACs (notably the 830 CD and S7i CD players), the Pioneer CLD-3090, the Rossini with clock and Vivaldi stack with clock have gotten it right.

The Rossini player alone still had the metallic transient to the beginning of the piano note that cheaper DACs do. Perhaps the Rossini Player alone had sonics that beat the S7i, but to me, if it can't get the piano notes right, there's no sense in even listening to what else it can do.

Before the Rossini with clock, the closest a DAC came was the Moon 780Dv2, but it had a few other issues; the Ayre QX-5 Twenty didn't get the piano right, either.

I haven't been able to hear the Esoterics, so I couldn't say whether they get it right or not.

[imprezap2]

Originally Posted by BillK

The one that is the one I use to be able to tell within ten seconds is Amy Grant's version of Jimmy Webb's If These Walls Could Speak from Lead Me On (A&M cd 5199) in 1988.

Sadly there was a remaster of the disc in 2007 that completely destroyed the track and its usefulness for testing audio equipment.

I've never come across a track that made it more obvious, and you must use the track from the original CD release, either from A&M or Myrrh 7016871614.

As I said, of DACs I've tested personally and at shows, only Wadia DACs (notably the 830 CD and S7i CD players), the Pioneer CLD-3090, the Rossini with clock and Vivaldi stack with clock have gotten it right.

The Rossini player alone still had the metallic transient to the beginning of the piano note that cheaper DACs do. Perhaps the Rossini Player alone had sonics that beat the S7i, but to me, if it can't get the piano notes right, there's no sense in even listening to what else it can do.

Before the Rossini with clock, the closest a DAC came was the Moon 780Dv2, but it had a few other issues; the Ayre QX-5 Twenty didn't get the piano right, either.

I haven't been able to hear the Esoterics, so I couldn't say whether they get it right or not.

Just tried the song on Tidal (1988 version), streaming with Aurender N10 and Rossini itself, even without the extra clock not a hint of a metallic sound to the transient, leading edge is fast and clear. Another great song to test is Autumn in Seatle from Tsuyoshi Yamamoto (K2HD version), at 3.44 into the song the piano is very dynamic.

[BillK]

Originally Posted by imprezap2

Just tried the song on Tidal (1988 version), streaming with Aurender N10 and Rossini itself, even without the extra clock not a hint of a metallic sound to the transient, leading edge is fast and clear. Another great song to test is Autumn in Seatle from Tsuyoshi Yamamoto (K2HD version), at 3.44 into the song the piano is very dynamic.

Then I suspect whether it is actually the 1988 version, or if there is something about it being played at CD resolution that exacerbates the issue.

The metallic transient is instantly obvious to everyone I've ever played it for before (including, as he admitted, PS Audio DirectStream designer Ted Smith when I played it for him at RMAF in the PS Audio room. When I played it for him he immediately began positing on what he thought it was and how he might be able to ameliorate it, but to date no version of his DAC software has. )

For example, the staff at my dealer literally winced when I pointed it out and they listened carefully again, then agreed when I played the track with and without the clock enabled and agreed "that's just not right" when I shut off the clock and the metallic transient returned. We then played the track on every other DAC in the shop and heard that though the degree of it varied, every other DAC did present it, including the Rossini Player, unless the clock was enabled, where the metallic edge went away and it sounded like a piano once more.

They really had high hopes that the tube stage of the ARC Ref CD 9 SE would get it right… but they instantly agreed that it didn't.

Note this might make perfect sense; Wadia spent a lot of their time reducing clock jitter between their transports and their DACs; it may well be that the clock is the only thing that gets the timing as accurate if not more than so than Wadia's "ClockLink" between their internal transports and their DAC.

[imprezap2]

Originally Posted by BillK

Then I suspect whether it is actually the 1988 version, or if there is something about it being played at CD resolution that exacerbates the issue.

The metallic transient is instantly obvious to everyone I've ever played it for before (including, as he admitted, PS Audio DirectStream designer Ted Smith when I played it for him at RMAF in the PS Audio room. When I played it for him he immediately began positing on what he thought it was and how he might be able to ameliorate it, but to date no version of his DAC software has. )

For example, the staff at my dealer literally winced when I pointed it out and they listened carefully again, then agreed when I played the track with and without the clock enabled and agreed "that's just not right" when I shut off the clock and the metallic transient returned. We then played the track on every other DAC in the shop and heard that though the degree of it varied, every other DAC did present it, including the Rossini Player, unless the clock was enabled, where the metallic edge went away and it sounded like a piano once more.

They really had high hopes that the tube stage of the ARC Ref CD 9 SE would get it right… but they instantly agreed that it didn't.

Note this might make perfect sense; Wadia spent a lot of their time reducing clock jitter between their transports and their DACs; it may well be that the clock is the only thing that gets the timing as accurate if not more than so than Wadia's "ClockLink" between their internal transports and their DAC.

This morning I have listened again to a few "audiophile" piano recordings, there is absolutely no trace of any metallic sounding transients through the Rossini as a standalone player. (in my system)

Anyway I will leave it at this.

[BillK]

Are you listening from a CD or a stream?

That may, in part, be the key.

I'm not trying to tell you we don't hear what we hear, but rather trying to figure out why you don't hear what I do, and I confess I don't stream anything, I am strictly silver disc and local file-based.

Note also that it seems to be just this track that makes it particularly obvious, which is why it's my go-to.

[jpspock]

Which map did you use for listening ?