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  #21  
Old 10-09-2015, 09:41 AM
chipchas chipchas is offline
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Interesting thread! I am using the stock Valencia 846a with a Montille 6v6. I really like the dynamics and the cohesive presentation/musicality. Compared with my Devore 9’s, the Altecs are lacking some low frequency extension which, I suppose, I can accept. The Altecs also seem to be missing the warmth and especiallly the tone of the 9’s. I am not sure ‘tone’ is the right descriptor, but the 9’s sound more ‘colorful.’ For me, this is a very important aspect of sound. Is this just the nature of the Valencia’s, or can it be improved?

I am likely to try the crossovers that JayBass mentioned. Will changing crossovers do much for the tone? Any other suggestions?

Thanks!!!
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  #22  
Old 10-09-2015, 05:04 PM
junker junker is offline
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How big are the DeVore 9's?

The 25Hz free air resonance Altecs drivers really like ~10 cubic feet (250-300L). The Valencias and Flamencos only have about 5.8 & 6.0 cubic feet respectively so don't expect much extension below 50Hz. However, the bass quality is quick, natural, dynamic, and tactile due the light paper cone and high strength Alnico V magnet structure. The low travel driver also presents a nice load to tube amplification.

I find the one thing that is really right about them is the mid-range to be honest - as well as dynamics and speed - so I'm not sure how to compare to what you have going on. The HF compression driver and horn is really more of a mid-range and picks up from about 1KHz to 10KHz where is starts to roll-off pretty fast and is pretty much nonexistent by 16KHz. This is my primary issue with the Altec platform. The best way to remedy this would be to add one of the two top Fostex Supertweeters which just sit on top of the cabinet - look for the brass body. Then just add a cap to crossover at 10KHz. This is my long-term solution to add that top bit of sizzle back to symbols, high hats, etc.

As far as the crossovers go, then hell yeah swap those half of a century old crossovers out of there. I built mine from scratch as per the Altec schematic and reverse engineering a sacrificial pair of N-800-F units. For something turn-key I think the Mast Mutter units look awesome for what it is worth. The stock crossover unit - and domestically sized cabinets - are the main points to address with these speakers. I haven't seen Mast Mutter list anything as of late but for ~$500 it is a no brainer. The stock crossover sounds pretty good at low volumes but congeals, compresses, and gets shouty when pushed. It uses electrolytic capacitors, two crappy inductors placed side-by-side, and has the "L-Pad" variable resistor which are all limitations. And if you want to replace your captive OEM wire you have to replace the crossover for the most part.

As Valencias usually have mauled front fretwork I'd consider having a nice 250-300L cabinet made. The port size can be obtained from a table in the Altec Loudspeaker document I posted above.

My top 3 upgrades in order of bang-for-the-buck are:

1) speaker stands / tables
2) crossovers & wire
3) brass internal hanging hardware w/ washers to dampen the horn

Hope that helps.

-Josh

Last edited by junker; 10-10-2015 at 01:49 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-09-2015, 05:19 PM
junker junker is offline
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Also, where do you have your L-Pad set? On a table I was using 5~8. This helps reveal the mid-bass -> midrange.
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  #24  
Old 10-10-2015, 12:39 AM
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Jerome W Jerome W is offline
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Very interesting thread.

It shows the amount of passion and time necessary when one takes the vintage speakers path. Divers, magnets, filters all degrade with time.
Restoration or replacement is difficult because very few people know how to do it correctly AND you can never know if the sound you get corresponds to the one that those speakers had 50 years ago. Some vintage Altecs have been "restored" or "upgraded" in such a way that they share very little points with the original character of the speaker.
For a newcomer like me, the Altec world seems like a jungle.

I felt completely in love with the bass of the 604 driver when I listened to an old version of Shindo 604's speakers a few weeks ago.


The mids and the treble were not to my taste, and the stereo image too, but this was certainly due to the amp used ( a modern class AB Luxman SS integrated) and to the fact that the 604 is known to be the most difficult Altec driver to use.
But the bass !!! Oh my !!!
the very first time for me that I heard a bass so uncanny, so free and fast, and super super super clean. Like if the instrument was talking and I could hear every single letter. A bass so natural that it left me completely speechless.
It also made me decide to look for a pair of vintage Altec's. The "Nineteen" may be the one the most to my taste in terms of mids and treble.
Clearly the weakness is the fact that this bass does not go very low ( seems that fast and low are just impossible to reach ). The 30cm of the Harbeth 40.1 goes much deeper but it sounds completely "in a bag", "unbreathing" and super damped compared to the Altec bass.
I read somewhere that the Altec 12' driver ( 33cm ) gives a deeper bass than the 15' ( 38cm). Is that true ?
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Last edited by Jerome W; 10-10-2015 at 12:44 AM.
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  #25  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:21 AM
junker junker is offline
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H Jerome! The 15" should have a lot better bass. I think the free air resonance on a 12" is 38 Hz vs. 25Hz with the 15". That speaker you show has a volume of maybe 250-275L so that is perfect to get the speaker closer to 35Hz. That would be ideal for me. I don't need a speaker to go to 20 Hz... sure it's nice but not worth losing everything else that a low excursion Alnico paper woofer can do. Field coil versions should be amazing too but I've never done a close comparison and I'm okay with the original Alnico V Altec design.

I'd just want to clarify what "original" Altec means. For the record their primary market was selling separate drivers and crossovers, as well as sectoral horns for commercial, industrial, and custom "built-in" residential applications. 604's were typically sold al la carte. So don't read to much into the cabinet or anything else - their drivers and horns are the "magic". And IMO their later residential speaker systems were compromises of volume (size) and some other factors to meet space, aesthetic, and price constraints.

Every speaker is going to be a set of compromises and optimizations, so you just have to go with what matches your system and tastes the best. I'd love to build 250-300L cabinets as one of the last items with my speakers, but honestly I'd like build 604's at some point - the only other speaker on my radar right now. About those Shindo crossovers... not sure if it's exactly the same but this is a similar approach to what Mast Mutter sells. But both are a different approach to the original Altec schematic. Even Ken Shindo made modified Flamencos with a new cabinet and crossover. As long as one sticks to the Altec build principles in the speaker document it is Altec. =)

Thanks for that pic Jerome... I <3 604's!!!


Shindo modified Flamenco

Last edited by junker; 10-10-2015 at 02:14 PM.
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  #26  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:26 AM
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My Altec Flamenco (Ole!)

Last edited by junker; 10-10-2015 at 01:40 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2015, 01:37 AM
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Jerome W Jerome W is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post
H Jerome! The 15" should have a lot better bass. I think the free air resonance on a 12" is 38 Hz vs. 25Hz with the 15". That speaker you show has a volume of maybe 250-275L so that is perfect to get the speaker closer to 35Hz. That would be ideal for me. I don't need a speaker to go to 25Hz... sure it's nice but not worth losing everything else that a low excursion Alnico paper woofer can do. Voice coil versions should be amazing too but I've never done a close comparison and I'm okay with the original Altec design with Alnico is great.

I'd just want to clarify what original Altec means. For the record their primary market was selling separate drivers and crossovers, as well as sectoral horns for commercial, industrial, and custom "built-in" residential applications. 604's were typically sold al la carte. So don't read to much into the cabinet or anything else. Their drivers and horns are the "magic". And maybe of the later residential speaker systems compromised on volume (size) and some other factors to me those space and price constraints.

Every speaker is going to be a set of compromises and optimizations, so you just have to go with what matched your system and tastes the best. I'd love to build 300L cabinets as one of the last items with my speakers, but honestly I plan to build 604's at some point because they - the only other speaker on my radar right now. But both are a different approach to the original Altec schematic. About those Shindo crossovers... not sure if it's exactly the same but this is a similar approach to what Mast Mutter sells.

Even Ken Shindo made modified Flamencos with a new cabinet and crossover. As long as one sticks to the Altec build principles in the speaker document it is Altec. =)

Thanks for that pic Jerome... I <3 604's!!!


Shindo modified Flamenco
Thanks a lot Josh !
Those modified Flamenco's by Shindo look awesome.
I would love such a pair in my home.
More pics of those 604's here :http://www.disquantique.com/view_pro...?product=13849
They are the speakers of the late Jean Marie Piel. Famous french hifi guru, chief redactor of "DIAPASON". He drove them with Shindo WE300B, I do not remember the preamp but Shindo of course, and the Shindo 301 TT.
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Last edited by Jerome W; 10-10-2015 at 01:41 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-10-2015, 02:09 PM
Garth Garth is offline
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good information on altec speakers and restoring cabinets great thread
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2015, 11:47 PM
chipchas chipchas is offline
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Junker,

Thanks for your reply. Helpful indeed!

Larger cabinets for the Valencia’s are an intriguing option. I did a quick search, but didn’t find any plans or a consensus on the best design?

I do think my Valencia’s sound better when I sit on the floor. I need to experiment with the height of the speakers. Any creative ideas for lifting them up a bit? I’m thinking hockey pucks?

Good call on the L-pads. I have further backed them off to 7 and it did help.
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  #30  
Old 10-13-2015, 12:12 AM
junker junker is offline
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Oh yeah having them on the floor is no bueno. You might have a bit more bass but they'll require the horn more cranked up and reflect off the floor, and have a super low image.

Best idea is to make a simple table. Just have a piece of 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood cut to the size of the bottom of your speaker, and buy 8 pre-manufactured legs and just glue and screw from the top. Also, if you set them on a table I recommend removing the cheap plastic sliders on the bottom of the speakers so they couple better with the table stands.

If you want to experiment to see how you like it maybe just pick up something cheap at Ikea, or use something you might have laying around at your place?

This is an older pic but I'll post something better this week. ;-)


Last edited by junker; 10-13-2015 at 02:28 AM.
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