AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Manufacturers Forums > Shindo Laboratory

Shindo Laboratory Sound Create Producer

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-11-2013, 09:02 AM
Pronan's Avatar
Pronan Pronan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 188
Default Many a man has said - "don't mess with Shindo kit"

Hi everyone,

Wanted to start a general discussion on what people think is an acceptable level of tinkering with the out of the box Shindo delivery. Over the past 12 months of reading on this very knowledgeable forum and its excellent members there seems to be a feeling that, for some of you, one should not mess with the masters work. For example:

Some comments with strong conviction:
The choice of tubes should not be changed
The power cord is best sourced from Shindo

Some comments with less conviction:
Place amps on hardwood platforms
Shindo interconnects and speaker cable are the best match

Personally I have tried several high end power cords and not had any improvement (tonal change yes but not a quality uplift), however I am willing to try tube rolling (got some Shuguang Treasure KT88-Z on the way)

Thoughts?
__________________
MSB platinum Signature DAC, Weiss Int202, Mac Mini
Shindo Giscours, Shindo CC80's, Zingali Client Name Evo 1.5
A23 IC's and speaker cables, stillpoints Ultra SS
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-11-2013, 09:55 AM
Vinyljh Vinyljh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 139
Default

Quick answer- leave it alone. Shindo or Auditorium 23 cables only- Switchcraft plugs, at a minimum a must. Stock tubes. Hardwood boards were never recommended by anyone on the Shindo team. What you place your Shindo on has as much of an impact as the cables. Hardwood, in my experience, doesn't sound good. It has a strong character that once again EQ's the sound. Maple is bright, Walnut is warm etc. Most of the dealers, Mr. Aschenbrenner, myself all use Lignolab, some use Box Furniture. These are constructed of various types of plywood.

Speakers- high efficiency, high impedance. The lower the impedance, the lower the reflected impedance of the output transformer on the output tubes, the harder the tubes work, the shorter they live. Not to mention completely changing the voicing of the amp.

"Personally I have tried several high end power cords and not had any improvement (tonal change yes but not a quality uplift)"

Exactly. If it gets better, you have probably corrected for something else- room acoustics, speakers, racks etc

Speak with your dealer, I spend a lot of time giving them information. They spend a lot of time learning and doing the experiments for you.

Jonathan
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-11-2013, 09:56 AM
dirtbag dirtbag is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: vancouver bc
Posts: 515
Default

I'm most definitely use the keep it simple approach.
Simple quality ingredients. Don't mess with a good thing.
It seems like a lot of people in this hobby have more interest in tweaking than they do in actually listening to music. My recent room and system ovehaul has
been to simplify things. My Shindo gear is left as is.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-11-2013, 10:27 AM
Vinyljh Vinyljh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 139
Default

"I'm most definitely use the keep it simple approach.
Simple quality ingredients. Don't mess with a good thing.
It seems like a lot of people in this hobby have more interest in tweaking than they do in actually listening to music. My recent room and system ovehaul has
been to simplify things. My Shindo gear is left as is."

Bravo. Spend your money on more music.

Jonathan
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-11-2013, 11:58 AM
NeilNZ NeilNZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 197
Default

Jonathan is right on the money. Every time one of my customers try's to tweak something the sound moves away from what Ken Shindo intended. Simpler is better. Bling invariably is just bling.
Audiophilia is filled with people who want to tweak, which is fine, just remember every time someone fiddles takes away from the vision of goodness that is Shindo.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-11-2013, 12:31 PM
KenSea KenSea is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Seattle
Posts: 85
Default CC34s and 8 ohm speakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyljh View Post
Quick answer-.

Speakers- high efficiency, high impedance. The lower the impedance, the lower the reflected impedance of the output transformer on the output tubes, the harder the tubes work, the shorter they live. Not to mention completely changing the voicing of the amp.

Jonathan
Jonathan, in reguards to speakers, I am using a pair of CC34s and the Proac D18 which presents a very easy 8 ohm load at 87db, would this make the tubes run a lot harder and hotter than say a 10 ohm load or would I need to go to something much more efficent and even higher impedence. One of the things I have wondered is the tubes are biased at 60 mAs and taking to tube techs they feel its running at the edge even for a really well built Mullard .Also looking at Mullards spec sheet it seems to confirm the techs views.

Thank you for your time,
Ken

Last edited by KenSea; 06-11-2013 at 12:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-11-2013, 01:36 PM
Vinyljh Vinyljh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 139
Default

I copied this from a website, I hope this helps:

"Some "gurus" will tell you that an EL34, for example, needs around 40mA of bias. This is inaccurate information, because it doesn't take into account the class of operation, the output transformer primary impedance, or the plate voltages involved. For instance, an EL34, in class AB operation at 400V, with a 4K plate-to-plate primary impedance, would be biased at 40mA, while the same EL34 tube, used in a true class A circuit at 250V, might be biased at around 100mA."

8ohms is fine. 87db is low... However, this wont hurt the amp. All things being equal, higher efficiency is capable of better performance. High efficiency speakers also separate the men from the boys in terms of amp quality. Good sounding amps on low sensitivity speakers, often reveal their weaknesses on high sensitivity speakers. Low sensitivity speakers act like compressors. Shindo excels on high sensitivity.

Jonathan
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-11-2013, 02:00 PM
pitch perfect's Avatar
pitch perfect pitch perfect is offline
chief tube tester
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 315
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenSea View Post
Jonathan, in reguards to speakers, I am using a pair of CC34s and the Proac D18 which presents a very easy 8 ohm load at 87db, would this make the tubes run a lot harder and hotter than say a 10 ohm load or would I need to go to something much more efficent and even higher impedence. One of the things I have wondered is the tubes are biased at 60 mAs and taking to tube techs they feel its running at the edge even for a really well built Mullard .Also looking at Mullards spec sheet it seems to confirm the techs views.

Thank you for your time,
Ken
Hi Ken,

Shindo is running the CC34's in Class A, within the context of his unique circuit design, so 60ma isn't too extreme at all.

-M
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-11-2013, 03:19 PM
Jerome W's Avatar
Jerome W Jerome W is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,240
Default

I agree that tube rolling is a non sense for Shindo : Ken Shindo spent enough time himself to select very good tubes for his amps and preamps. Tube rolling starts when original tubes are tired as we're mine in the Apetite, and you bought a used unit from an individual and not the dealer : from what I was told, Shindo will not provide new NOS tubes for those.

For power cords, I think that Shindo amps are somehow immune to them. Exotic PCs do not make them sound better. Stick with the stock cords.

Of course, Shindo amps are made to be used with high impedance / high eff speakers. All the users, me included, who use them with other speakers do not hear them as they were voiced, and do this at their own risk.
__________________
There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats
Albert Schweitzer
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-11-2013, 04:56 PM
Macnbone Macnbone is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Default

Thanks for starting this thread, Pronan, and for the informative and helpful responses thus far. - D
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:45 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video