Speaker decision 803D's and along came Sabrina

[Jagman]

Originally Posted by Rod#S

Never count out someone putting the Sabrina's up for sale. There's always someone who can't audition and has to buy blind and is underwhelmed by the performance of a speaker, someone who has to move and can't take the speakers with them, someone who has to downsize, etc. etc. There's always hope

The 300 watts you have will do plenty fine for the 802's. All the talk about the 800 series needing gobs of power is B.S. in my opinion. I ran my 802's and 800's off a Bryston 4B-SST (340 watts) in a similar sized room as you and it could make your ears bleed if I ever cranked up the volume. Moving on up to Bryston 28B's was never out of need, simply want.

I suspect the Sabrina's and 802's would be a far more well rounded speaker than the Aerial 7T as I know the 802 is over the 803. Having said that though I have seen people post their preference for the 803 over the 802.

Thanks for feedback on my MA8000 Rod. I can't disagree regarding the Sabrina's and 802's vs the 803's and 7T's. Based on your and Joeys input I will take a harder look at the 802's. I am starting to think those Wilson's at $16k may be a bit over priced as Wilson's tend to be, but man they sure sound good. The 803's at $7500 are still appealing to me based on my room size.
Kevin

[Jagman]

Originally Posted by joey_v

Let us know how you like they Quattro and treo. The dealer you're headed to is primarily a Wilson dealer. I remember when they started to bring in the Vandersteens... They (the salesman) gave me mixed vibes on it.

I will for sure. Looks like it will next week before I get over there, but I'll be sure and post my thoughts. The far to brief listen to the Treos told me they are a LONG way from the Sabrina's, but they are half the price. The Quatros will be interesting at $13K. You definitely have me thinking about used 802's now though, and still like the 803's at the price.
Regarding the dealer, very nice store. 15 years ago I almost bought an Audio Research amp and PoAc speakers from them. There was another high end store in Plano and I stumbled on to the Hales Transcendence 8's with then Relatively new Classe gear. I rounded out the order with Classe preamp, amp, processor with Cardis cables for a cool $20k. That setup or comparable would go at minimum $30-$35 today. But the Hales were new brand a deal at $10K. Still one of the very best speakers I have ever heard. Loved all if it for 15 years.

[James]

I understand where you are coming from. I started with B&W 703s (older version of cm10... More or less). I looked at the usual suspects for upgrades 803d, 802diamond, Sophia 3, focal 1037be, thiel 3.7 etc, Magnepan 3.7, revel studio 2

Here is the hard truth. The 703s is just a bad speaker and I am sure the cm10 is bad too. As you hear more speakers I am sure you will realize it too (hash in the treble, no bass, peaky mids).

At one point I had the b&w 802diamond and Sophia 3 in the same room/system for a full demo with my own music. Honesty I liked the B&Ws better (most would like the wilson better IMO) but the mids of the b&w really wore on my ears. After a few hours I needed a break. The B&Ws had more punch and sparkle (colored) but it wore me out. The Sophia is a very good speaker but lacked driver integration and ultimate resolution, but were fun.

So IMO the Sophia is not worth the asking price (lack of accuracy) BUT would be a good buy used. You could get a used pair of Sophia 2s within your budget of $7500 and they will walk all over the 803diamond with better bass and more natural mids. The b&w tweeter is much better though. And then there are used Sophia 3s for under $10k too. But at the asking price of the Sabrina my guess is they are a poor value (I have not heard them).

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by James

But at the asking price of the Sabrina my guess is they are a poor value (I have not heard them).

Wait, what?

[James]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Wait, what?

No it make sense.

At the time I was looking at the Sophia 3 it was 17.5k (now 20k?) and there were a lot of speakers that sounded better for less money. So now a smaller speaker comes out with a lower cost mid range driver at $16k. So in 3 years time you get less speaker for the same money more or less? That is a hard sell to me. I would love to see a head to head with a pair of revel studio 2s, Magico S1, Vivid audio B1, Dynaudio c2, Focal 1038be, which are all about the same foot print and price.

Just because speakers of a few years ago are not in the head lines does not mean they are lacking. For less or the same money there a bunch and I mean a bunch of good speakers. Don't get me wrong. I like Wilsons there are just better buys out there.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by James

No it make sense.

At the time I was looking at the Sophia 3 it was 17.5k (now 20k?) and there were a lot of speakers that sounded better for less money. So now a smaller speaker comes out with a lower cost mid range driver at $16k. So in 3 years time you get less speaker for the same money more or less? That is a hard sell to me. I would love to see a head to head with a pair of revel studio 2s, Magico S1, Vivid audio B1, Dynaudio c2, Focal 1038be, which are all about the same foot print and price.

Just because speakers of a few years ago are not in the head lines does not mean they are lacking. For less or the same money there a bunch and I mean a bunch of good speakers. Don't get me wrong. I like Wilsons there are just better buys out there.

None of this is the point. Nobody is selling you anything. You are offering advice to someone looking at changing speakers.

You said you have no idea about Sabrina. You stated clearly that you have not heard it. So what you guess is simply an uninformed opinion.

Sorry but if a salesman on a high end store floor made this recommendation based on never having heard a product, he would get fried on this forum. Imagine if Ivan were to say about the XYZ amplifier, " I have never heard it but it's sound is overpriced." Not happening as well it shouldn't.

[joey_v]

Jagman,

When and if you want to come by to listen just PM me. I am trying to see if I might part with the 802Di for the right price. I got offered a focal Scala v2 and I want to try it out. No biggie though if you're not interested as there isn't anything at the 802 diamonds used price that I find more appealing .

[James]

Just trying to give jagman a point of reference between B&W and Wilson having had them both in the same room same system several times (tubes and solid state).

It can be very hard to pick out the differences at dealers that don't carry both or are too lazy to move them around for you.

I can't help you with the Sabrina but here is a Quick run down of the Sophia 3 and 802diamonds in a very good room with 40K of AR gear (forgotten the models). For what it is worth I have also heard the 803di and 802di same room same gear and I would save for the 802di as it is better in the mids and bass by a good bit.

Bass,
802di has more bass out put on the tube gear (with solid state the Sophia really slammed...) low notes were better defined on the Sophia's. Low notes got lost (40hz and under) on the 802di. Sophia had the better base for me.

Mids,
B&W had more detail and were also more peaky in the upper mid. The voices did not spread as wide on the 802di. The Sophia 3 had nice mids with no major issue. Good focus and natural ness but lacked a little edge compared to other speakers. No real winner but I felt the Wilson got it closer to the source.

Highs,
802di WOW really great. Maybe a tad hot on the solid state but on the AR tube gear it was special. Wilsons were not bad but nothing special. The wilson tweeter sounded better than many would have you believe

Sounds stage,
I get lost in the 802di like no other speaker. Not sure why but I had a handful of magic moments I have not with other speakers. With the Wilsons I could hear each driver with took me out of that magic zone.

Driver integration:
Both had some issues. The 802di tweeter stood out. And the bass on the Wilsons stood out. As a reference I had the Theil 3.7 in the same room system demo that day and the thiels really showed how good driver integration could be.

So as I said I can't comment on the Sabrina but wilson as a whole has poor value IMO. Do they sound good yes, is there better for less money... You will have o decide.

If you are open to used speakers the 802di and Sophia 3 would be top of my list for under $10. Used they are a GREAT value. I would also throw in the Revel Studio 2. It is a little more polite than both the 802di and Sophia but gets more technically right.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by James

Just trying to give jagman a point of reference between B&W and Wilson having had them both in the same room same system several times (tubes and solid state).

It can be very hard to pick out the differences at dealers that don't carry both or are too lazy to move them around for you.

I can't help you with the Sabrina but here is a Quick run down of the Sophia 3 and 802diamonds in a very good room with 40K of AR gear (forgotten the models). For what it is worth I have also heard the 803di and 802di same room same gear and I would save for the 802di as it is better in the mids and bass by a good bit.

Bass,
802di has more bass out put on the tube gear (with solid state the Sophia really slammed...) low notes were better defined on the Sophia's. Low notes got lost (40hz and under) on the 802di. Sophia had the better base for me.

Mids,
B&W had more detail and were also more peaky in the upper mid. The voices did not spread as wide on the 802di. The Sophia 3 had nice mids with no major issue. Good focus and natural ness but lacked a little edge compared to other speakers. No real winner but I felt the Wilson got it closer to the source.

Highs,
802di WOW really great. Maybe a tad hot on the solid state but on the AR tube gear it was special. Wilsons were not bad but nothing special. The wilson tweeter sounded better than many would have you believe

Sounds stage,
I get lost in the 802di like no other speaker. Not sure why but I had a handful of magic moments I have not with other speakers. With the Wilsons I could hear each driver with took me out of that magic zone.

Driver integration:
Both had some issues. The 802di tweeter stood out. And the bass on the Wilsons stood out. As a reference I had the Theil 3.7 in the same room system demo that day and the thiels really showed how good driver integration could be.

So as I said I can't comment on the Sabrina but wilson as a whole has poor value IMO. Do they sound good yes, is there better for less money... You will have o decide.

If you are open to used speakers the 802di and Sophia 3 would be top of my list for under $10. Used they are a GREAT value. I would also throw in the Revel Studio 2. It is a little more polite than both the 802di and Sophia but gets more technically right.

You misunderstand. I'm not looking to buy any of these speakers. I have been in this industry since I was in college a very long time ago. There is no problem with preferences and opinions when based in experience. You have done a great job of describing what you feel the differences to be between the 802 and the Sophia. You pay your money and you take your choice.

My point is that talking about your experience with Sophia and 802s is fine. Discussing Sabrina when you have not seen or heard it is fine. But to suggest a performance level and value quotient to someone who has heard Sabrina when you have not is absurd and misleading. When you have far less information about the actual product and its performance than does the person considering the purchase, you might want to reconsider what you say.

YMMV

[Jagman]

Originally Posted by James

I understand where you are coming from. I started with B&W 703s (older version of cm10... More or less). I looked at the usual suspects for upgrades 803d, 802diamond, Sophia 3, focal 1037be, thiel 3.7 etc, Magnepan 3.7, revel studio 2

Here is the hard truth. The 703s is just a bad speaker and I am sure the cm10 is bad too. As you hear more speakers I am sure you will realize it too (hash in the treble, no bass, peaky mids).

At one point I had the b&w 802diamond and Sophia 3 in the same room/system for a full demo with my own music. Honesty I liked the B&Ws better (most would like the wilson better IMO) but the mids of the b&w really wore on my ears. After a few hours I needed a break. The B&Ws had more punch and sparkle (colored) but it wore me out. The Sophia is a very good speaker but lacked driver integration and ultimate resolution, but were fun.

So IMO the Sophia is not worth the asking price (lack of accuracy) BUT would be a good buy used. You could get a used pair of Sophia 2s within your budget of $7500 and they will walk all over the 803diamond with better bass and more natural mids. The b&w tweeter is much better though. And then there are used Sophia 3s for under $10k too. But at the asking price of the Sabrina my guess is they are a poor value (I have not heard them).

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback James. Great information to consider and considering the used market this thing gets blown wide open. The one thing that is almost universal, NO ONE that I've talked to or read dislikes the 802Di's. And for me, those Sabrina's were absolutely wonderful! That said the guys in the Wilson forum said to be sure and check that they weren't driven by $12 cables, which seems to be somewhat customary for Wilson demos.
Also, it's easy to dismiss the CM10's once they are viewed out of isolation, but truth is, they really aren't bad speakers at all. In fact they really are VERY VERY good speakers for $4k a pair, and perhaps even more. Having owned my own reference level speakers in the big Hales T8's however I do know what I'm missing and don't think I'll rest till I get back there or better
Also thanks for the great comparison in your latest post!