AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Audio & Video > CD Players, Digital Music & Servers

CD Players, Digital Music & Servers Aurender, dCs, Esoteric, Lumin.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-26-2016, 04:25 AM
SCAudiophile SCAudiophile is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 4,531
Default Reasonably pricing Rb & OCXO and OCXO-only 10 Mhz Master clocks...

***Not a dealer or affiliate in any way of the equipment vendor (or any other for that matter) listed below and I derive no benefit from writing about their gear....only want to share some facts that I literally found by search engine earlier this year...***

See my system listing for details....This past Spring 2016 , I stumbled on Cybershaft Japan as an option via listings on various sites for high-quality 10 Mhz master clocks. They make premium and ultra-premium OCXO, Rudidium-only and OCXO+Rb clock units (single port each standard) for high-end audio, video and studio purposes at an extremely aggressive price point.

They are rated for 100-120V and 50-60Hz use (also available for 220-240v and 100v configs) which makes them perfect for US or Japanese usage. They supply all their test and calibration results for each unit prior to shipment1 year unconditional warranty.

The site can be found google-ing for 'Cybershaft Japan'.

I have the Cybershaft Rb+OCXO 'dual master clock' offering up and running for about 6 months and I am extremely impressed by the build quality of the unit and the customer service provided by Hasegawa-san. He goes to great lengths to ensure all questions are answered and provides unit-specific test data for ALL testing of the unit including Allan Deviation, reference measurement devices used, etc....It's the most specific and open backing
data of what a unit truly does after it is built that I have ever seen.

As the owner explained to me and provided test results, the fallacy in the high-end clocking market is that "PPM" and "PPB" are the only specs that matter; as I understand now, there are as many if not more important aspects of a clock's true behavior and influence on a system in terms of its phase noise, Allan Deviation and other key aspects.

The price point of the unit is a fraction of the other offerings in the space (that provide 10 Mhz atomic-precision master clocking) and frankly when I saw the unit, it's quality, appearance and sheer weight coupled with the exceptional customer service, I don't feel that I am missing out on a single thing compared to the offerings from Stanford Research, Isochrome/Antelope,or others.

I currently have this connected as follows;

Cybershaft Rb-output=>10Mhz=>Esoteric D02 (WRD CLK IN, 10Mhz)=>Esoteric P02 (MCLK frequency from the D02)

*The Cybershaft adheres to a strict 50-ohm output spec. as does the D-02's 10 Mhz clock input; while I tried 75-ohm cables on various peoples' recommendation, I found the best results aurally are gained by use of a true 50-ohm compliant cable + connectors.

Put another way, the Cybershaft clock is providing an ultra-high precision baseline for the clocking circuit of the D02.

All the specs and other technical aspects aside, there was an immediate improvement in the natural/liquid nature of the sound when I enabled the 10 Mhz input signal from the Cybershaft to drive the WRD CLK Input of the D02 over the D02 alone. All was extremely good before but I find a touch more precision in image size and placement (of instruments and voices) and an even more musical presentation overall of the system as a whole.

In my years owning Esoteric separates starting with the P-03U/D-03 I did own the G-0s Rb-oscillator master clock and was extremely impressed with the overall precision of the musical presentation. Esoteric builds amazing SOTA clocking devices....I utilize the G-0s for 'frequency multiple' clocking to match my upsampling frequencies of choice (176.4 Khz being my favorite). Later on, for various reasons, I sold my G-0s and ran without a clock for a while and frankly missed the precision. I later added in a G-03X and liked the balance of precision and musically correct aspects of each note and imaging that it offered.

When the P-02/D-02 hit my setup, I initially kept the G-03X but later found that the 22.xx Mhz "MCLK" functionality of the D-02 driving the P-02 gave me a more natural sound stage and tonal correctness plus better imaging so the G-03X later left the system. I ran like that for quite a few months before that audiophile urge grabbed me again and I began to think about outboard 10 Mhz/other master-clocking once again. Wanting to stick within a reasonable budget (I love the upper-line Esoteric clocks but they just did not fit reality for me at the time), I began to look at 10 Mhz offerings from SRS, Antelope and others. As mentioned above, I stumbled on this company as they are not well-advertised or known outside of the professional AV community and audiophile community in Asia-PAC and am extremely glad that I did. There is a definite incredibly pleasing and believable aspect to how my system sounds ever since. Everything is simply that much more musical and seemingly correct.

My ultimate goal is to get an Esoteric upper-line clock back into the system and use the Cybershaft to provide an ultra-high quality 10 Mhz master baseline clock to drive it.

Hope this helps one or more of you....have a great week!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-26-2016, 08:18 AM
nycjazz nycjazz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 522
Default

Thanks for the tip. I dont understand much about this subject, so pardon the stupid questions. Can these clocks ( i went to the site in japan) help for all frequencies an esoteric k03x can output or are only for redbooks 44.1? Also, i saw some models for 10mhz but only said qz, not Rb, is qz inferior to Rb?

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-26-2016, 09:12 AM
SCAudiophile SCAudiophile is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 4,531
Default

These clocks help the rendition of sound and its quality for any unit that can take in a 10 Mhz "master" or "atomic" clock signal. 10 Mhz is a recognized standard clock input signal as I understand it but your unit needs to support a separate 10 Mhz specific input, that being 50-ohms (not 75!) in this case. Most Esoterics support this in the upper levels. I do not know if the K-03 or K-03X do off hand but the specifications sheet will let you know whether this frequency and impedance input is provided. As 10 Mhz is a standard reference clock frequency (versus frequency multiple approaches that are multiples of 44.1 or 48 Khz), it can be utilized with any playback frequency including multiples of 44.1, 44.1 itself or SACD/DSD...hope this helps.

Quartz/OCXO is not inferior to Rubididum. For years based upon lack of knowledge and only believing marketing literature about "PPM" or "PPB" accuracy specs being given were the only ones that matter, I will tell you that I thought so. I've been shown through hard test results, etc...and thru the feedback of alot more technical members of the forum in this respect than I am, that it's about many more things including the phase noise and Allan Deviation characters of the clocking circuit in question. In my rig, and several others I know of, we've found that the sound quality and many other aspects with an OCXO-based clock of extremely low phase noise is superior in specs and more importantly, musical reproduction than many Rubidium sources that are labelled as "PPB"/"more precise".
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-26-2016, 10:38 AM
nycjazz nycjazz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 522
Default

Thank you for the response!!! One more question, what is the difference between a clock and a wordclock? I read different answers everywhere.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-26-2016, 01:37 PM
Masterlu's Avatar
Masterlu Masterlu is online now
AA Founder, Legend AV Owner



 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: South FL & Cape Cod MA
Posts: 78,484
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycjazz View Post
Thank you for the response!!! One more question, what is the difference between a clock and a wordclock? I read different answers everywhere.
Same/same
__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-26-2016, 01:43 PM
SCAudiophile SCAudiophile is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 4,531
Default

As Ivan points out, they are and mean the same thing and are used interchangeably.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-26-2016, 02:30 PM
nycjazz nycjazz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 522
Default

Thanks. From the manual of the go1, it shows that the impedance out of the 10mhz clock is 50 ohms, and the impedance out of the clock out ports is 75 ohms. This tells me that the gear mentioned here at 50 ohms out the 10 mhz click should work just fine with the k01x or k03x. Setting in CLOCK SYNC setting should select CLK for SYNC 10mhz and not MCK 22.6 (for the non esoteric brand discussed here, cybershaft)

Last edited by nycjazz; 09-26-2016 at 02:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-26-2016, 03:38 PM
SCAudiophile SCAudiophile is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 4,531
Default

That is correct...you must use 50-ohm on ports labeled as such on both the Esoteric input and output ports on the respective unit. Cybershaft units are clearly only for 10 Mhz/50-ohm usage and should only be connected to 50-ohm / 10 Mhz capable input ports on any piece of gear.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-26-2016, 04:18 PM
ariess ariess is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 763
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycjazz View Post
Thanks. From the manual of the go1, it shows that the impedance out of the 10mhz clock is 50 ohms, and the impedance out of the clock out ports is 75 ohms. This tells me that the gear mentioned here at 50 ohms out the 10 mhz click should work just fine with the k01x or k03x. Setting in CLOCK SYNC setting should select CLK for SYNC 10mhz and not MCK 22.6 (for the non esoteric brand discussed here, cybershaft)
Esoteric factory and reps say no detectable difference using a 75 ohm cable for 50 ohm on clock if you keep cable short (meter)

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-27-2016, 06:25 AM
SCAudiophile SCAudiophile is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 4,531
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariess View Post
Esoteric factory and reps say no detectable difference using a 75 ohm cable for 50 ohm on clock if you keep cable short (meter)

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado
Good Day! First off, apologies in advance as this could turn into a long and potentially subjective response but I'd like to fill in some info from my direct experience having also just been through this in detail.

Yes, I know Esoteric will tell you that as I got the same answer from them this past Spring. I did wonder what "detectable difference" meant, i.e. was that in a listening test or did not measure no detectable difference? Were they only talking strictly about signal loss over short-run
or long-run (75-ohm is superior in this department) but not paying attention to accuracy of the what occurred during playback?

***I also got the same type of advice from 2 clock manufacturers of 10 Mhz devices in addition to Esoteric. It left me wondering though why the specifications go to the trouble of defining a 50-ohm cable spec. AND a 50-ohm unique connector spec and build (look at pictures and the inside-ends of a 50-ohm BNC and 75-ohm BNC online sometime; finding them via google-search is easy. There is a difference when you look at them side by side. Why have unique and specific specs for 50-ohm and 75-ohm cables and connectors, then ignore both effectively and say there is no detectable difference?

My listening results could simply be 'audiophile happy ears' at having a literal 50-ohm cable and connectors and that I feel good about matching the little labels on the BNC input/outputs on my units.

On the other hand,...please consider the following;

What’s the Difference Between 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm Coaxial Cable? | Amphenol Cables on Demand (www.CablesOnDemand.com) Blog

A bit more on what I tried;

- when I picked up the Cybershaft clock, I had them charge me for and send a very basic 50-ohm cable (clearly entry-level but labeled on the jacket as matching the spec. it also had very inexpensive but clearly correct, 50-ohm connectors; see about URL for pictures), it was low-cost and only meant to fill a gap until I found something better...I received this cable and ran with it for well over 1200+ hours of break-in/playback of the clock in my system

- some of the differences with the clock were very subtle but a couple such as soundstage 3D 'wrap around' on recordings that I knew exhibited this even with a stereo image increased, as did instrument the accuracy of voice size & placement in the soundstage, when the 10 Mhz clock was active in the system versus when i took it out of the circuit and went back to only the D-02 driving the P-02 with "MCLK" config/settings. There was also a bit more density of music in the room on the exact same recordings played back with the 10 Mhz clock engaged using its Rubidium outputs and even more using it's lower phase noise OCXO output. To be fair again, there may have been some audiophile happy ear factor here in support of my clock purchase but I think using a very low cost cable (think $25 USD) should help make that effect a bit more objective....

- I then ordered (from my favorite manufacturer in all my years of digital cables over all those vendors I've owned) a 50-ohm equivalent of my existing "uber" 75-ohm cable but special ordered as matching a 50-ohm spec.....

- the cable arrived; it looked very good, had beautiful gold-plated BNCs, but was about 1/2 the diameter of the 2 Emotion 75-ohms that I own (used to have an Esoteric G-03x to drive my D-03/P-03U and later my 02 units)...I still use one of these to connect the 75-ohm output on my D-02 for "MCLK" to my P-02

- I did some playback with $25 50-ohm cable in the system; then power cycled the system, putting the new "uber" 50-ohm cable in the system

- Played back the same tracks that had exhibited the positive/increased attributes mentioned above and was unhappy at the result as the soundstage lost at least a foot or two in depth, width and height, it lost some density of music in the room, and the three dimensionality and surround effect of the music tracks themselves was noticeably diminished....

- While unhappy, I attributed this to new arrival of cable and need to have it settle in and warm up....stayed cabled like this for 72 hours or thereabouts and heard same results over a lot more tracks....

- On the 4th day, took the 50-ohm KS cable (or so I thought) out of the system. Put the $25 cheapo 50-ohm cable back in. This time, did not power cycle the clock or rest of system as I realized that with a clock as long as playback was not happening, I could just unhook, re-cable and wait for clock-sync to occur,...no need to take the clock, DAC and Transport back to a cold startup state

- What happened next blew me away; this $25 cheapo 50-ohm cable caused all those advantages I'd heard before to come back on those same recordings. I'm not exaggerating here but to make sure at the time that I was not, I asked a good friend with great ears as they say to take a listen and repeated the cheapo cable->then bespoke expensive cable->back to cheapo cable scenario. My wife is not an audiophile but my friend is, and both told me there was a noticeably better difference with "Cable1" and that I should keep it...

- Being a good audio-nut with all the attendant ego attached to my purchases, I was quite unhappy but realized I had never closely scrutinized the new bespoke "uber" cable that cost alot more than $25 so I took a look at it including comparing it to the URL link above's contents. To this day, I still cannot tell what cable was under that outer jacket and techflex but I will tell you that I realized, much to my chagrin and embarrassment, that I had failed to notice they used a 75-ohm connector on a length of 50-ohm cable...

- I contacted the manufacturer and he confirmed this may have happened, the assembler may very well (I'm inferring between the lines from the chat here) thought that the difference between 50-ohm and 75-ohm connectors was no big deal, and used the wrong connector no matter how heavy and shiny gold it was...

- Apologies from the vendor ensued and they immediately set out to make me a proper 50-ohm cable with 50-ohm connectors. This is an honest mistake on their part and I did not and would suggest anything bad about them especially considered so much of this b.s. floating around out there about there 'being no measurable/other difference...'

- I then continued for about 5 weeks to enjoy my new broken-in 10 Mhz clock with $25 el-cheapo cable...I went through a LOT of recordings and the result were already vastly superior to the D-02/P-02 alone

- The vendor then sent me a brand new, with no demand for the old one to be sent back (very gracious/somewhat hard to believe), 50-ohm cable. This time the body and jacket looked identical to the other "mistake" cable I had received BUT there was a proper 50-ohm, no frills, set of connectors on it. No shiny gold plated connectors, etc. etc. etc. but the connectors themselves matched all the reference pics I had found for 50-ohm connectors perfectly
If you don't see the diffs between 75-ohm and 50-ohm connectors from the URL above, let me know and I'll be more specific...

- Without cycling the system, I put the new "uber" 50-ohm cable in the system and waiting for clock re-sync. Then I played the same test tracks that were playing before FedEx Overnight arrived and the results shocked me; all the positive attributes noted above with the el-cheapo 50-ohm cable were there and were more defined and even more present in the resultant playback....subsequently did the listening tests with wife and audio-nut with great ears and they both said similar (but not identical) things about how the improvements manifested themselves....

Deep Breath,...In summary, lots of lessons learned here most loud among them being a $25 cable that is properly built to a digital transmission spec can sound much better than a "better/uber" cable that does not adhere to the spec. This is digital transmission after all,...not that surprising when you think about the prospect of what amounts to getting a stream of 0s and 1s or a waveform over that digital cable intact and clean from source to target.

Your mileage may vary,.....I may be a typical audiophile with psycho-affected hearing,...who knows
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:33 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video