AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > The Lounge > General Audio Discussion

General Audio Discussion All other Audio Q & A

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-28-2017, 11:12 PM
Timobi Timobi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Monroe, LA
Posts: 606
Default Frustration with Vinyl...When Is It Time to Move on?

This is NOT meant or intended to be a war subject....lets keep it civil.

Would like some feedback from my fellow AA friends. So I have a nice Turntable setup. VPI Classic Signature…Ortofon Cadenza Blue Cart. There is something really romantic and even sexy about putting a real record on...But over the past few months I truly find myself frustrated and disappointed with continuing to fork over large amounts of $$ for 45 rpm’s that are well reviewed but in reality are noisy pressings and pops that really just take away from the musical enjoyment. Some of the disappointment could be due to increased hype and expectations but my ears don’t lie.

As my system continues to evolve and DACS get better and more refined the gap between truly GREAT vinyl and GREAT digital has narrowed significantly. There are still some records like Cat Stevens, Linda Ronstadt, Oliva Newton John, Beach Boys, 1960/1970 ish stuff that has a larger soundstage. Vocally sounds a bit more real. I'm sure there are more...But other than that? IDK…some of those DSD downloads and even good old Redbook layer are sounding fantastic.

The other night listening to a new 45 rpm from Analogue Productions. Was so excited. Got it out. Cleaned it with the VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine…Then put it on and was like. Damn this is noisy. When those times happen it makes you want to toss the record out the window.

Anyone else reached a point where you got fed up with Vinyl and went 100% digital? Or did you just lower the expectations and ‘it is what it is’? Like I said I have some awesome awesome records. But I have more that are not.

Soon in the house will be the McIntosh D1100 and Aurender N10. The digital will sound even better than I have now.

Color me frustrated with the results and the with the cost and effort.

Someone talk me away from the vinyl ledge
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-28-2017, 11:20 PM
gadawg gadawg is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Prosper TX
Posts: 847
Default

I bought a lot of new vinyl at Barnes and Noble in the past year only to find that many of the pressings were in fact terrible. Nothing like an average pressing back in the day. Then I started buying more of it online from a highly reputable source and more of those pressings have been very good. It seems that in the haste to meet new demand many of the factories are sometimes turning out less than stellar product. For me though I've had much better luck online.

George
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-28-2017, 11:35 PM
Mikado463 Mikado463 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: SE Pa
Posts: 3,925
Default

Tim, try not to take this the wrong way (you probably will anyway), but you have clearly demonstrated what so many young people (yes you are, you lucky buggar) are saying and bottom line is ........ you did not grow up with it !!! But.......you now want to jump on the band wagon.......it doesn't work that way .....sorry!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-28-2017, 11:46 PM
Timobi Timobi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Monroe, LA
Posts: 606
Default

Well Dave....you could not be more mistaken. What brings you to that wrong conclusion?

I am 54. Grew up with vinyl. There was no bandwagon..My Dad had over 2,000 records. And had the original Quads. Vinyl was an integral part of my life. Only 'vinyl' break I had was in college and was broke. And our home flooded in 1982 just prior to be going to college and lost them all. But I slowly re-built my collection. I didn't own a CD player until after 1996.

In the past 6-7 years as my income has grown I have made some real advances in my setup. But the results are still a mixed bag.

Last edited by Timobi; 09-28-2017 at 11:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-28-2017, 11:57 PM
Timobi Timobi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Monroe, LA
Posts: 606
Default

Agreed George. But some of these are from places like Acoustic Sounds and Soundstage Direct. But again its not ALL of them. There are some that are truly stellar. I think it partially comes down to the cost of these vs the outcome.

But when its bad it does rear its ugly head. I can live with some surface noise. Its when they can sound flat...One wonders if these reviews of these re-releases are truly legit? BTW, the japan pressings I own are dead quiet. Wow. I think I have owned about 15 versions of Hearts Dreamboat Annie over the years! But the japan version is the quietest and has the best sonics.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-29-2017, 12:14 AM
briweed briweed is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 301
Default

I have found that when you think a record is clean, and it is noisy, then it really is not clean. I went to the extreme and bought 2 different RCM's and use them back to back. All of my noise problems went away unless the record is just pressed poorly. Granted it is an expensive path, but one that has kept me enjoying vinyl. Your mileage may vary...

B
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-29-2017, 12:20 AM
Antonmb's Avatar
Antonmb Antonmb is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northwest Washington (Mt Baker foothills)
Posts: 9,121
Default

Tim,

I have very little surface noise on most of my vinyl - little enough that I don't find it to be a problem. I clean albums once when I buy them with a VPI 27, but I only use a carbon brush when I put a record on the TT. I don't have a very large collection (about 1000) by some standards, but I have many albums from the 60s and 70s that still play well with little or no surface noise.

Just for clarification, are you saying you clean with the VPI when you first get an album, or every time you play one? If the latter, it could be causing excess static and contributing to the noise you're getting. It frankly sounds like there may be some other issue besides just the quality of vinyl, although I agree some new pressings are not all they're cracked up to be.

As to your original question, "when is it time to move on," I'd say when you're no longer enjoying it - and it sounds like maybe you're there already.
__________________
Tony
D'Agostino Momentum S250 MxV & HD pre; Linn Klimax Organik DSM, SonicTransporter, EtherRegen; Acoustic Signature Typhoon Neo, Koetsu RSP, Boulder 1108; Sf Il Cremonese; Shunyata Everest, Altaira, Sigma & Alpha v2
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-29-2017, 12:31 AM
mulveling mulveling is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 589
Default

I actually didn't *totally* grow up with vinyl (when very young, a few 45s, but mostly cassette tapes and later CDs), but I absolutely prefer vinyl over digital. Though I have to admit -- overall DAC quality has come a LONG ways in the past several years. Currently I only have a Schiit Yggdrasil, and it is way WAY better then the Sony SCD-1 and Meridian G08 I suffered with in my pre-vinyl days. I also recently had a NAD M51 and Eximus DP-1 which were also quite musical and enjoyable.

If you don't have a reasonably high tolerance for an audible hiss/rush noise floor, low-level cracking, and the occasional (or not-so occasional) pop, then you're going to have a very hard time adopting vinyl as your reference. For me, the passion/flow of good vinyl is still sonically superior to digital, for most of the music I care about. And I can also tolerate a good deal of noise when it manifests -- so vinyl wins out.

I actually just bought a Clearaudio Double Matrix Sonic. Great machine! It perhaps lowers noise floor a little bit over the VPI 16.5, but more importantly it improves clarity/resolution on the discs it cleans. However, there is still some noise there. I actually feel fortunate that, as obsessed as I am over sound quality, I kinda give noise floor a bit of a pass (hello, Rogue Hera II -- absolutely beautiful sounding pre with a relatively high noise floor vs. say an ARC Ref 6).

Also, your Ortofon Cadenza and phono stage just might not be for you. I'd say it's worth taking a stab at some different gear. My Koetsu stones are quieter than my Cadenza Bronze, and the Shelter Harmony is quieter yet (Koetsu is still my favorite, though).

There are *occasional* new LPs I buy that seem strikingly free from noise defects. But if I cared more about noise floor, it would drive me crazy trying to track down more of these "magic" discs.

Last edited by mulveling; 09-29-2017 at 12:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-29-2017, 12:37 AM
Masterlu's Avatar
Masterlu Masterlu is online now
AA Founder, Legend AV Owner



 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: South FL & Cape Cod MA
Posts: 78,484
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by briweed View Post
I have found that when you think a record is clean, and it is noisy, then it really is not clean. I went to the extreme and bought 2 different RCM's and use them back to back. All of my noise problems went away unless the record is just pressed poorly. Granted it is an expensive path, but one that has kept me enjoying vinyl. Your mileage may vary...

B
Bingo! I believe the VPI 16.5 record cleaner is your weak link. I know, because I have used it before. The new ultrasonic RCM’s will remove ticks, pops, and surface noise like magic. YMMV.
__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-29-2017, 12:50 AM
vintage_tube's Avatar
vintage_tube vintage_tube is offline
Just Pure Lucky



 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: East Coast
Posts: 8,746
Default

A couple weeks ago I had a major issue with my SME. I was stumped/dumbfounded and quite alarmed to tell you the truth. I did what I could at the evening moment & reluctantly texted Mr. BP -- who along with my dealer set up the SME (and Strads) at the time.

Mr. BP responded and after texting/photos he found the cause of the issue.

This past week, on Tuesday, I said to myself, I need to relook all the settings, from start to finish as if a new Tone Arm/cartridge install. The cartridge I knew was fine -- just confirmed the screws were tight and went on thru the step by step TA install. Verifying this an that.

Everything spot on & verified with the templates provided -- checked tracking force with one of my gauges and lo & behold it was off quite a bit. Readjusted to specs - 2.0g and put on a very well known LZ "RL" cut LP. Sounded like crap. very noisy, thin and bass was like thru a radio shack set of speakers. Just ugly. Late at night & decided to tackle the next day.

Next day, double checked TF, and okay -- but, thought let me try my better TF gauge. It was dead as a door nail & had to go to 5 stores to get the new Energizer 301/386 batteries. Back home, batteries installed, holy cow. I was way light on TF -- so low it was quite embarrassing. No wonder.

Using the better TF gauge, adjusted for 2g (got it to 2.01). Put on LZ and presto -- smiling.

Tonight, my 'home alone' neighbor came over and had music going since noontime as he came in. System warmed and he wanted to hear Stevie Ray Vaughan -- got And Double Trouble out & placed on the SME. Not a pop nor tick nor any noise. Stevies' guitar playing was front and center -- bass rock steady and crystal clear all around.

We played some 45RPM twelve inch analog remasters along with stuff I bought back in 1968/69/70. He's been over a number of times and again, like many time previous, sat in the sweet spot and mentioned he could not believe it was vinyl.

I bought these and were delivered this week -- I feel for you as the vinyl experience I most appreciate. CD's/SACD's are convenient but when I wanna jam -- off comes the SME acrylic dust cover. Yes, all are quality pressings - but my old stuff sounds great too.

I'd suggest you check TF -- it could have changed -- especially after much use. Things like that do happen.

I'm a vinyl junkie at the end of day (and can back it up with pristine sound, dynamics, micro and much detailed -- w/no noise).

Best Sir,

Bob

__________________
Amps:VAC 450iQ Monos in Silver Flake on HRS M3X2-1921's, HRS G7 Footers/G-Links & Sound Anchor Conecoasters.
Preamp:VAC Master Preamplifier (Silver Flake)
Digital Source: dCS Rossini CD/SACD Transport, Vivaldi APEX DAC, Upsampler Plus & matching Clock (Silver)
Analogue Preamp:VAC Renaissance SE Phono stage in Silver Flake with XLR Output Option & with Nordost Valhalla XLR's.
Analogue Sources:SME 20/2 w/SME V arm & Nordost Valhalla TA cable, Palo Santos Presentation Cartridge & Akai GX-400D Reel-to-Reel w/relapped heads by JRF Magnetic Sciences. Akai RC-17 cabled remote (original owner since 1974).
Vibration Control:TT on HRS M3X2-1921 shelf.
Speakers:Wilson Audio Alexia in Argento Silver/Black grills sitting on Acoustic Diode Kit.
Power Cables:4 Nordost Odin Supreme Reference on amps, preamp & DAC. Ansuz Acoustics C2 on Transport & Clock.
Power Distribution Bar:Shunyata Everest 8000 w/Omega XC Power Cable.
Power Outlets:Furutech GTX-D NCF (R) duplex outlet, GTX Wall Plate & Duplex Cover (x2) on dedicated, same panel phase, 20A breakers.
Speaker Cables:3M Nordost Odin Supreme Reference on Nordost Sort Lifts.
Signal Cables:Nordost Odin XLR's on dCS DAC & Amps.
Digital Cables: Nordost Odin 2's, 110 ohm AES/EBU on dCS Transport to DAC.
Clock Cables:5 each 75 ohm 1.25M Nordost Valhalla BNC/BNC Digital
Ethernet Cable: WireWorld Platinum 1M Starlight® 8 Twinax
Headphones:Vintage Koss Pro IV AA.
RCM: Audio Desk PRO
Tube Test Gear:Mint late '60's/calibrated Heathkit TT-1A, MaxiMatcher Preamp & Space Tech Labs ATT-3.02 tube test sets.

Last edited by vintage_tube; 09-29-2017 at 12:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:56 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video