Time-alignment of Speakers

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o

+1 It's so simple and straightforward with the MEN220.

However ---- I Have found the MEN220 does not like having the sub virtually placed 120" behind the main speakers. It will send loud squealing noises through your speakers. To avoid that issue, I have resolved to bring the sub closer to me so I don't have to tell the MEN220 the sub is 120" behind. Follow me. The sub is between the mains and the LP. So I only tell the MEN220 that the sub is 84" behind the mains to achieve the needed mains delay equal to if the sub is ~10' in front of the mains.

Hope that makes sense.

[o0OBillO0o]

Originally Posted by crwilli

However ---- I Have found the MEN220 does not like having the sub virtually placed 120" behind the main speakers. It will send loud squealing noises through your speakers. To avoid that issue, I have resolved to bring the sub closer to me so I don't have to tell the MEN220 the sub is 120" behind. Follow me. The sub is between the mains and the LP. So I only tell the MEN220 that the sub is 84" behind the mains to achieve the needed mains delay equal to if the sub is ~10' in front of the mains.

Hope that makes sense.

Err You're doing it wrong??? If your sub is between you and your mains, then the sub is INFRONT of the speakers. Thus you delay the sub to match the main Left and Right speakers.


Use a tape measure, measure each speaker distance from the measurement spot. Enter those values into the MEN220. Follow the "best practices measuring instructions" YouTube video posted by Ron Cornelius and Chuck Hinton. It's all in the manual.

It's time to tell the MEN220 the truth about where your speakers are. It's made to do all the "thinking" for you.

[crwilli]

On the surface, I can simply tell the MEN220 exactly where every speaker is and forget it.

However, If I understand Barry Ober's direction correctly, the system needs to have the sub fire well before the mains - equal to about 10' due to inherent delays within the JL sub electronics.

Therefore, If your mains are at 10' away, the sub needs to be at your listening position in order to be synced. That is not ideal for lots of reasons. In my case the sub is 7' away from the LP and my speakers are 12' away from the LP.

To effect a delay of the mains relative to the sub of 10' I need to have the sub fire earlier by setting its distance in the MEN220 to the distance of the mains (12') - the distance the sub is already closer (5') + the desired mains delay (10') = 17'.

I am open to learning if that is all wrong but it seems logical to me.

[chessman]

Originally Posted by crwilli

On the surface, I can simply tell the MEN220 exactly where every speaker is and forget it. However, If I understand Barry Ober's direction correctly, the system needs to have the sub fire well before the mains - equal to about 10' due to inherent delays within the JL sub electronics. Therefore, If your mains are at 10' away, the sub needs to be at your listening position in order to be synced. That is not ideal for lots of reasons. In my case the sub is 7' away from the LP and my speakers are 12' away from the LP. To effect a delay of the mains relative to the sub of 10' I need to have the sub fire earlier by setting its distance in the MEN220 to the distance of the mains (12') - the distance the sub is already closer (5') + the desired mains delay (10') = 17'. I am open to learning if that is all wrong but it seems logical to me.

Craig, I agree with you. Because of the JL Audio F113's propagation delay, it needs to launch the impulse wave relatively "sooner" than the mains in order for each impulse wave to arrive at the listening position at the same time. Setting each speaker to the exact literal distance between it and the listening position only is accurate when the speakers have the same propagation delay. Because the F113's 13 inch driver takes longer to start its motion, it needs to be told to start earlier than the faster speakers.

[crwilli]

Thanks for the confirmation Randy.

[nicoff]

Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o

Err You're doing it wrong??? If your sub is between you and your mains, then the sub is INFRONT of the speakers. Thus you delay the sub to match the main Left and Right speakers. Use a tape measure, measure each speaker distance from the measurement spot. Enter those values into the MEN220. Follow the "best practices measuring instructions" YouTube video posted by Ron Cornelius and Chuck Hinton. It's all in the manual. It's time to tell the MEN220 the truth about where your speakers are. It's made to do all the "thinking" for you.

Actually I am using the same method suggested by Barry Ober and it works for me too. I suggest that you read his white paper on sub integration at www.soundoctor.com under White Papers.

[o0OBillO0o]

Originally Posted by crwilli

On the surface, I can simply tell the MEN220 exactly where every speaker is and forget it.

However, If I understand Barry Ober's direction correctly, the system needs to have the sub fire well before the mains - equal to about 10' due to inherent delays within the JL sub electronics.

Therefore, If your mains are at 10' away, the sub needs to be at your listening position in order to be synced. That is not ideal for lots of reasons. In my case the sub is 7' away from the LP and my speakers are 12' away from the LP.

To effect a delay of the mains relative to the sub of 10' I need to have the sub fire earlier by setting its distance in the MEN220 to the distance of the mains (12') - the distance the sub is already closer (5') + the desired mains delay (10') = 17'.

I am open to learning if that is all wrong but it seems logical to me.

Originally Posted by chessman

Craig, I agree with you. Because of the JL Audio F113's propagation delay, it needs to launch the impulse wave relatively "sooner" than the mains in order for each impulse wave to arrive at the listening position at the same time. Setting each speaker to the exact literal distance between it and the listening position only is accurate when the speakers have the same propagation delay. Because the F113's 13 inch driver takes longer to start its motion, it needs to be told to start earlier than the faster speakers.

Originally Posted by nicoff

Actually I am using the same method suggested by Barry Ober and it works for me too. I suggest that you read his white paper on sub integration at Soundoctor - Home under White Papers.

Guys, I'll check it out. My going in position is that McIntosh and Lingdorf know more than Barry Ober and that you all have been smoking Christmas "trees".

Still, I'll open up for some education and change in perspective.

[crwilli]

Bill,

Does this make sense? The secret is knowing the inherent delay of the JL Sub and then going from there.

I guess as Randy said if the sub and the main drivers all react with equal speed and have equal connection lengths, then I could use the actual locations in the MEN220.

Craig

[o0OBillO0o]

Originally Posted by crwilli

Bill,

Does this make sense? The secret is knowing the inherent delay of the JL Sub and then going from there.

I guess as Randy said if the sub and the main drivers all react with equal speed and have equal connection lengths, then I could use the actual locations in the MEN220.

Craig

For the most part, I understand where you've found and employed the methodology. I don't know everything, it is something I will explore. Thanks.

[chessman]

Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o

For the most part, I understand where you've found and employed the methodology. I don't know everything, it is something I will explore. Thanks.

If it helps, Dave Wilson also believes in propagation delay.