From B&W to Vivid Giya

[bmwmcab]

Originally Posted by AndyPandy

Slightly OT - apologies to the OP - are both the B1's and to a lessor degree the G2's G3's hard to drive?

@OP - Well if you have any reservations, I'd be listening to them at home before parting with the cash. They aren't cheap.

I'm running my B1's with a luxman m800a. It's rated at 60W class A. It plays plenty loud for me. I also tried running them with my digital tact amp s2150. Although it was a little cooler sounding (not as warm as the luxman), it was never bright or fatiguing. I'm very sensitive to bright sounding speakers and my B1's in my room are nothing of the sort.

[Tompy]

I listened to the Giya02 through Mac C50 and MC601, the same amp setup I have at home. The CD player was a Mac501 because the dealer did not have an Esoteric like in my home setup. I then listened through an MA6800 (I believe) integrated amp and there was a sudden, noticeable harshness in the higher frequencies. If I hadn't heard the C50/MC601 setup first, I could have been tempted to blame the speakers. In this case however it was clear that the MA6800 was the source. Not a mediocre amp by any standard, but it's just that the Giya's are a bit unforgiving and exposing. So in my case the source caused the harshness, not the speakers.
My dealer was not jumping for joy to transport the speakers to my home, exactly for the reasons you mentioned, and I can understand that because they are extremely heavy, in huge crates, the paint work is delicate, and it takes quite a while set them up. I have to say that the dealer did his utmost to accommodate my audition wishes in store.

[AndyPandy]

Originally Posted by bmwmcab

I'm running my B1's with a luxman m800a. It's rated at 60W class A. It plays plenty loud for me. I also tried running them with my digital tact amp s2150. Although it was a little cooler sounding (not as warm as the luxman), it was never bright or fatiguing. I'm very sensitive to bright sounding speakers and my B1's in my room are nothing of the sort.

Oh wow - m800a's - gorgeous. I had a Luxxie 590A (with some Harbeth's) at one point and loved it.

Sorry - I wasn't being clear - by "hard to drive" I didn't mean loud - I meant did they need alot of current to keep the woofers under control: but with the m800a both loud and woofer control is moot. Congrat's on a fabulous system - I am green.

To the Op - I think you better take your ARC gear to the dealers place....Mohammad to the Mountain and all that...

[bmwmcab]

Originally Posted by AndyPandy

Oh wow - m800a's - gorgeous. I had a Luxxie 590A (with some Harbeth's) at one point and loved it.

Sorry - I wasn't being clear - by "hard to drive" I didn't mean loud - I meant did they need alot of current to keep the woofers under control: but with the m800a both loud and woofer control is moot. Congrat's on a fabulous system - I am green.

To the Op - I think you better take your ARC gear to the dealers place....Mohammad to the Mountain and all that...

Thanks for the compliment!! When i was driving the B1's with my tact S2150 rated at 150w/channel, the bass was really good but when i hooked up the Luxman it was much better. Even though it's rated at 60w class A, it had better control and tighter bass. I guess with audio, that's the difference when you use better equipment.

[BillK]

Originally Posted by ariess

Listened to Giya G2 at my dealer's place. They are dynamic and highly resolving. However at times they were a bit bright and fatiguing.

I thought that about the Vivids when I first got them but found that it was actually a combination of my old speakers being very slightly rolled off up top and that the ancillary equipment I had was also a bit bright. The previous errors had "cancelled each other out" and so that's why it was only a problem when the G2s were put into place.

The G2s, for better or worse, are very revealing and unforgiving; if your equipment is bright, you'll hear it; if it's dark, you'll hear that too. Along with issues with your cables and so forth.

This means system matching is paramount, and for example if you have bright equipment, the G2 may not be a good match for you unless you're willing to address those other shortcomings.

To specifically discuss the B&W to Vivid progression, I have never, ever liked the B&W sound where I've always loved the Vivid sound. No B&W speaker I've ever heard save the Nautilus has ever let me forget I was listening to drivers in boxes, albeit very good drivers in very good boxes. No Vivid speaker from the oval series to Giya has ever sounded like it even had an enclosure.

I know "it's a matter of taste" is overused, but I don't see that someone who was really enamored of B&W would like Vivid, as the presentation is completely different. The only speakers I've ever heard that compare (for me) are Apogees and higher-end Wilsons (Sasha W/P, Sasha 2 and Alexia newer.)

Of course the absolute most important thing you can do is demo them in-home; when you're spending this kind of money you cannot settle for anything less.

Fun story: Not too long after I got the G2s, to ameliorate other issues I upgraded my pre from a Levinson No. 380S to an Ayre KX-R. While the sound was improved, it was indeed a bit bright and fatiguing, and really what's the point of having awesome speakers if you find yourself falling asleep due to listener fatigue thirty minutes into a listening session?

I had pondered that maybe the G2s were at fault, when I got to demo Ayre's new KX-R Twenty pre, and found it not only eliminated all fatigue and brightness, but it allowed me to hear deeper into the music than I ever had before with increased soundstaging and instrument placement.

I queried Ayre and they confirmed my observations, solidifying my belief that Vivids are mercilessly revealing about sources and flaws heard are more than likely the responsibility of equipment upstream than of the speakers themselves.

One other thing - be sure to listen to not only what you can afford, but what best fits the space.

I demoed the B-1, K-1 and Giya G3 and each time was left with the impression that they were wonderful speakers but just lacked... something compared to my existing speakers.

Ten minutes into my in-home demo of the G2 and I knew I wouldn't want them to leave.

One trick I've found with equipment is not to note how much better everything is with the equipment in place... check to see how much you feel its absence (and how much less you enjoy the same material) when you put back your old gear.

Kind of like the old saying that if you don't miss her when she goes away on a trip, you didn't really love her.

[ariess]

Originally Posted by BillK

I thought that about the Vivids when I first got them but found that it was actually a combination of my old speakers being very slightly rolled off up top and that the ancillary equipment I had was also a bit bright. The previous errors had "cancelled each other out" and so that's why it was only a problem when the G2s were put into place.

The G2s, for better or worse, are very revealing and unforgiving; if your equipment is bright, you'll hear it; if it's dark, you'll hear that too. Along with issues with your cables and so forth.

This means system matching is paramount, and for example if you have bright equipment, the G2 may not be a good match for you unless you're willing to address those other shortcomings.

To specifically discuss the B&W to Vivid progression, I have never, ever liked the B&W sound where I've always loved the Vivid sound. No B&W speaker I've ever heard save the Nautilus has ever let me forget I was listening to drivers in boxes, albeit very good drivers in very good boxes. No Vivid speaker from the oval series to Giya has ever sounded like it even had an enclosure.

I know "it's a matter of taste" is overused, but I don't see that someone who was really enamored of B&W would like Vivid, as the presentation is completely different. The only speakers I've ever heard that compare (for me) are Apogees and higher-end Wilsons (Sasha W/P, Sasha 2 and Alexia newer.)

Of course the absolute most important thing you can do is demo them in-home; when you're spending this kind of money you cannot settle for anything less.

Fun story: Not too long after I got the G2s, to ameliorate other issues I upgraded my pre from a Levinson No. 380S to an Ayre KX-R. While the sound was improved, it was indeed a bit bright and fatiguing, and really what's the point of having awesome speakers if you find yourself falling asleep due to listener fatigue thirty minutes into a listening session?

I had pondered that maybe the G2s were at fault, when I got to demo Ayre's new KX-R Twenty pre, and found it not only eliminated all fatigue and brightness, but it allowed me to hear deeper into the music than I ever had before with increased soundstaging and instrument placement.

I queried Ayre and they confirmed my observations, solidifying my belief that Vivids are mercilessly revealing about sources and flaws heard are more than likely the responsibility of equipment upstream than of the speakers themselves.

One other thing - be sure to listen to not only what you can afford, but what best fits the space.

I demoed the B-1, K-1 and Giya G3 and each time was left with the impression that they were wonderful speakers but just lacked... something compared to my existing speakers.

Ten minutes into my in-home demo of the G2 and I knew I wouldn't want them to leave.

One trick I've found with equipment is not to note how much better everything is with the equipment in place... check to see how much you feel its absence (and how much less you enjoy the same material) when you put back your old gear.

Kind of like the old saying that if you don't miss her when she goes away on a trip, you didn't really love her.

Thanks Bill these are excellent points.

In terms of brightness of the rest of my system, I have all Audio Research gear, Ref 75 amp and Ref 5SE preamp with Ref 9 CD/DAC as source. This is all tube gear and I have never heard anyone call it bright. My cables are al Transparent Reference, again never known as having bright leanings. My power gear is all Shunyata, Triton, Typhon, Python cables. Again, nothing bright in the loom. Does this make it unlikely I'd hear bright and fatiguing from the G2's? (Of course a bad recording could always do that.)

I am not sure what you mean by the "B&W sound" vs the "Vivid sound" I like a musical and transparent sound.

I am intrigued that you got a home demo of Giyas. Was this just the G2's?
How was it arranged? Who was the dealer? Really appreciate the intel and feel free to private message if you prefer.

[bart]

Originally Posted by BillK

I thought that about the Vivids when I first got them but found that it was actually a combination of my old speakers being very slightly rolled off up top and that the ancillary equipment I had was also a bit bright. The previous errors had "cancelled each other out" and so that's why it was only a problem when the G2s were put into place.

The G2s, for better or worse, are very revealing and unforgiving; if your equipment is bright, you'll hear it; if it's dark, you'll hear that too. Along with issues with your cables and so forth.

This means system matching is paramount, and for example if you have bright equipment, the G2 may not be a good match for you unless you're willing to address those other shortcomings.

To specifically discuss the B&W to Vivid progression, I have never, ever liked the B&W sound where I've always loved the Vivid sound. No B&W speaker I've ever heard save the Nautilus has ever let me forget I was listening to drivers in boxes, albeit very good drivers in very good boxes. No Vivid speaker from the oval series to Giya has ever sounded like it even had an enclosure.

I know "it's a matter of taste" is overused, but I don't see that someone who was really enamored of B&W would like Vivid, as the presentation is completely different. The only speakers I've ever heard that compare (for me) are Apogees and higher-end Wilsons (Sasha W/P, Sasha 2 and Alexia newer.)

Of course the absolute most important thing you can do is demo them in-home; when you're spending this kind of money you cannot settle for anything less.

Fun story: Not too long after I got the G2s, to ameliorate other issues I upgraded my pre from a Levinson No. 380S to an Ayre KX-R. While the sound was improved, it was indeed a bit bright and fatiguing, and really what's the point of having awesome speakers if you find yourself falling asleep due to listener fatigue thirty minutes into a listening session?

I had pondered that maybe the G2s were at fault, when I got to demo Ayre's new KX-R Twenty pre, and found it not only eliminated all fatigue and brightness, but it allowed me to hear deeper into the music than I ever had before with increased soundstaging and instrument placement.

I queried Ayre and they confirmed my observations, solidifying my belief that Vivids are mercilessly revealing about sources and flaws heard are more than likely the responsibility of equipment upstream than of the speakers themselves.

One other thing - be sure to listen to not only what you can afford, but what best fits the space.

I demoed the B-1, K-1 and Giya G3 and each time was left with the impression that they were wonderful speakers but just lacked... something compared to my existing speakers.

Ten minutes into my in-home demo of the G2 and I knew I wouldn't want them to leave.

One trick I've found with equipment is not to note how much better everything is with the equipment in place... check to see how much you feel its absence (and how much less you enjoy the same material) when you put back your old gear.

Kind of like the old saying that if you don't miss her when she goes away on a trip, you didn't really love her.

Good post Bill!

Like many members here, I made the move from B&W to Vivid, after hearing Magico, Wilson, Focal,...

I compared the B1s with the 802Ds, which are in the same price range.
System was: dCS source, ARC pre, and Ayre monoblocks.
The difference was not subtle.

Because my wife didn't like the Oval series' look, I was forced to buy Giyas.
The sound proved to be so pleasing that we ended up with a whole surround system which includes 3 speakers from the Oval series.

[Briz Vegaas]

Regarding Vivids need for current, the most difficult load is the B1 and i find i get fine control from my Conrad Johnson LP70s with the KT120 tube upgrade, and it is a significant upgrade. 70 stands for 70 watts. How revealing are my speakers, well i can't do serious listening to Audirvana in itunes integration mode, i find i have to completely switch itunes off and run in playlist mode. I note however that a reviewer on Stereophile called the B1 the perfect balance of detail and warmth. You will get more detail with the Giyas but the G3 and K1 i heard did not suffer for it.

Regarding bright electronics, i know of a pair of K1s that were run on ARC gear. The owner has since "upgraded" to Devialet because of the transparency of that A/D amp. Now you would think that if highs were going to be an issue the Devialet would tell you about it.

If your dealer has your amps and your future speakers surely the easy solution is to pack up your source and cables and get down to the retailer. Thats probably why he was reluctant the move the G2. Our Brisbane Vivid dealer will allow home demoes of the G3. Its more portable and may be an option as the giya have a strong family sound, only differing in the bass i understand.

[BillK]

Originally Posted by ariess

Thanks Bill these are excellent points.

In terms of brightness of the rest of my system, I have all Audio Research gear, Ref 75 amp and Ref 5SE preamp with Ref 9 CD/DAC as source. This is all tube gear and I have never heard anyone call it bright. My cables are al Transparent Reference, again never known as having bright leanings. My power gear is all Shunyata, Triton, Typhon, Python cables. Again, nothing bright in the loom. Does this make it unlikely I'd hear bright and fatiguing from the G2's? (Of course a bad recording could always do that.)

I am not sure what you mean by the "B&W sound" vs the "Vivid sound" I like a musical and transparent sound.

I am intrigued that you got a home demo of Giyas. Was this just the G2's?
How was it arranged? Who was the dealer? Really appreciate the intel and feel free to private message if you prefer.

I don't think you should have any issues with brightness in your system from the G2s; your system seems quite well balanced so you should hear all the ARC magic come through quite nicely.

Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons my dealer is no longer a Vivid dealer, but any current Vivid dealer should be able to provide an in-home demo unless you're rather distant from your dealer.

By B&W sound, I've always found the B&Ws to be a bit boxy and clinical (and in the case of the "D" models, a bit harsh on the high end), none of which are characteristics of any Vivid loudspeaker I've ever heard.

[ariess]

Originally Posted by BillK

I don't think you should have any issues with brightness in your system from the G2s; your system seems quite well balanced so you should hear all the ARC magic come through quite nicely.

Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons my dealer is no longer a Vivid dealer, but any current Vivid dealer should be able to provide an in-home demo unless you're rather distant from your dealer.

By B&W sound, I've always found the B&Ws to be a bit boxy and clinical (and in the case of the "D" models, a bit harsh on the high end), none of which are characteristics of any Vivid loudspeaker I've ever heard.

Ok, who was your dealer? Which Giyas did you home demo?

My dealer says "nobody ever home demos Giyas" so I wanted to see if there were other experiences out there.