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Turntables & Tonearms Where Analog still Rules

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  #21  
Old 09-13-2020, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Antonmb View Post
Pete, doesnít your C40 preamp have a MM phono stage? If so, why not buy a step-up transformer to feed an MC cartridge to the C40 phono stage? For the same price or less as the Pro-Ject, you could buy something like the Ortofon ST-7 step-up. The combination of Mac MM phono stage and a good step-up would probably beat the standalone Pro-ject.

Attachment 62860
Tony....I had mentioned in my earlier post on the topic of the Ortofon ST-7, that it appeared to be designed to mate with the Quintet series of MC Cartridges. In looking further at the Ortofon site, I see that there is a similar, but considerably higher priced model designed for the Cadenza series, which is where I'd like to be. This model is called the ST-70, and retails at around US $1,350.00 That makes it about $450 more than the Pro-Ject Tube Box 2, which I believe runs about US $800 with the wooden end panels.

I'm not sure as yet what characteristics are different between the Ortofon ST-7 and ST-70 Step up transformers.
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No. 35


Main System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint ultra minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint ultra minis, MS750 Music Server on Rollerblock Jr's, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Pioneer PL-L1000 TT/Audio Technica ATS52W2, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable

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  #22  
Old 09-13-2020, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Vintage Pete View Post
Tom....that may be a good point. As to the Pro-ject unit being "tube only", it's my understanding that the two ECC83/12AX7A's are in the output stage only. I have read good reviews as to it being quiet for a tube phono stage.

I know what you are saying about S/N when it comes to tube phono stages. I even remember Dan telling me he preferred the C1000C/P preamp over the C1000T when it came to hash noise in the phono stage.

FWIW, here's a couple of photos of the interior of the Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2.





Iíll probably get pilloried for this but unless there is some solid state device as the low noise front end then it is likely that this unit may sound fine otherwise but it wonít be as quiet as an MC cartridge and head amp can ultimately be.

All the recent McIntosh tubes MC amps (and many others) have very low noise SS front ends followed by some tube amplification and equalization stages.
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  #23  
Old 09-13-2020, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
Iíll probably get pilloried for this but unless there is some solid state device as the low noise front end then it is likely that this unit may sound fine otherwise but it wonít be as quiet as an MC cartridge and head amp can ultimately be.

All the recent McIntosh tubes MC amps (and many others) have very low noise SS front ends followed by some tube amplification and equalization stages.
I'm very interested in the noise aspect to all of this. As I mentioned before, the C40's phono preamp does indeed sound excellent-very very good in fact. But I have had some noise issues with it as well, though that seems to be in the rear view mirror at this point. There is a SMALL amount of audible hum if you advance the volume control to the point where the music would be very, very loud (which is not that far up the volume control).

I do wonder if perhaps the pro-ject Tube Box DS2 could end up being quieter than my C40, at least in terms of hum.

Speaking of hum, is there ever such a thing as a totally hum-free phono setup? Asking seriously...
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No. 35


Main System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint ultra minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint ultra minis, MS750 Music Server on Rollerblock Jr's, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Pioneer PL-L1000 TT/Audio Technica ATS52W2, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable

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  #24  
Old 09-18-2020, 04:33 PM
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Vintage Pete, not saying anything new probably, but when I fiddled around with tubes in my C2300's MM phono section, I noted that some tubes had more noise than others. I started with JJ Hi Performance Gold Pins which were noisier than the JJ Telefunken Black Diamonds I use now. Turning the volume up, I heard significant noise at about 60 with the JJs, but had to go much higher on the BDs. The JJs were great in the line section, though. A quiet tube will help if you get the Pro-Ject, I'd think.

Again, you probably know that, but I was a tube neophyte at the time. Still am, as far as I'm concerned.
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  #25  
Old 09-18-2020, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post
Vintage Pete, not saying anything new probably, but when I fiddled around with tubes in my C2300's MM phono section, I noted that some tubes had more noise than others. I started with JJ Hi Performance Gold Pins which were noisier than the JJ Telefunken Black Diamonds I use now. Turning the volume up, I heard significant noise at about 60 with the JJs, but had to go much higher on the BDs. The JJs were great in the line section, though. A quiet tube will help if you get the Pro-Ject, I'd think.

Again, you probably know that, but I was a tube neophyte at the time. Still am, as far as I'm concerned.
Charles....yes, it has occurred to me that I could do some tube rolling, though I've heard some talk that Project didn't make changing tubes particularly convenient with the Tube Box DS2.

Have you had any experience with Gold Lions? They seem to be pretty popular among AA'ers.
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No. 35


Main System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint ultra minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint ultra minis, MS750 Music Server on Rollerblock Jr's, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Pioneer PL-L1000 TT/Audio Technica ATS52W2, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable

High Resolution Source: HP Omen 17" Gaming Laptop
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  #26  
Old 09-18-2020, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Vintage Pete View Post
Charles....yes, it has occurred to me that I could do some tube rolling, though I've heard some talk that Project didn't make changing tubes particularly convenient with the Tube Box DS2.

Have you had any experience with Gold Lions? They seem to be pretty popular among AA'ers.
Yes, I have two pairs here. I bought them because of all the hype on AA and had them in my 2300 for about 83 hours, in the line and MM stages. I thought they sounded good, but I decided ultimately that they weren't as dynamic as I'd like, since my stereo doubles as a home theater. Listening to my reference tracks, I thought the GL's bottom lacked some punch. I get that punch with the Black Diamonds, and I had it with the JJ Hi Performance Gold Pins too.

That said, I still think the GLs are good. Who knows, perhaps I should revisit them.
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  #27  
Old 09-19-2020, 12:42 PM
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Pete - a Rosewood Prime Signature would also be sublime in your setting ...
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  #28  
Old 09-19-2020, 01:50 PM
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Pete - a Rosewood Prime Signature would also be sublime in your setting ...
damacman.....The VPI Prime signature is certainly a beauty; don't think I haven't looked at it in the past!

The problem here is the form factor, and the dimensions. My turntable sits upon an isolation platform that I made decades ago, which has a working depth of 15". The VPI Prime signature is 15.75" deep. (It's also big in the width dimension). So, the depth is problem number one. Add to that, and call me old fashioned, but I like having a dust cover. To put a dust cover on an oddly shaped table like this, one has to get one of these covers that goes completely around the table, resting on the same surface that the turntable's feet rest on. Not only do I not like these very much, it would also mean I would have to sacrifice the nice wooden platform my present turntable resides on...and that's a sacrifice I really am not willing to make. For this reason, I'm inclined to lean toward the more traditional design, with a nice rectangular plinth and a hinged dust cover. Either the Pro-ject Xtension 9 or Xtension 10 work for me in these respects.

Another beautiful table in the Project line is the Signature 12. Gorgeous table, with the nice rectangular plinth that I like. However, this one does not have a dust cover provision. Shame on Pro-ject on this one....I guess they didn't want the sale!

(Actually, I think that may be due to the amount of tonearm apparatus that protrudes from the back with this table). In any event, it's a deal-breaker for me.

Here's a shot of my available real estate:

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No. 35


Main System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint ultra minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint ultra minis, MS750 Music Server on Rollerblock Jr's, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Pioneer PL-L1000 TT/Audio Technica ATS52W2, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable

High Resolution Source: HP Omen 17" Gaming Laptop
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  #29  
Old 09-19-2020, 03:46 PM
damacman damacman is offline
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Pete ... ya' know, that h/k is s damn fine machine. And, that platform - wow!

Why not just put the Cadenza Black on it and upgrade to the phono pre you want? I've not looked at the eff mass of the arm on the h/k and how that matched up to the compliance of the cartridge, but if it's a go why not?

You can still upgrade the tt later ... or ... you may find that unnecessary ...
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  #30  
Old 09-19-2020, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by damacman View Post
Pete ... ya' know, that h/k is s damn fine machine. And, that platform - wow!

Why not just put the Cadenza Black on it and upgrade to the phono pre you want? I've not looked at the eff mass of the arm on the h/k and how that matched up to the compliance of the cartridge, but if it's a go why not?

You can still upgrade the tt later ... or ... you may find that unnecessary ...
Damacman....these are valid points for sure....and there is a reason I've held on to this table so long. It does sound, well, fabulous. And, it's in mint condition.

One hitch is that the TT in my Florida room has gone belly up, and I don't think it's worth fixing. It's a linear tracking Pioneer PL-L1000 with a lot of microprocessor control and that's where the problem is. I honestly don't use it that much anyway.

My thinking has been to put a new TT in the living room, and move the H/K with its Ortofon 2M Black to the Florida room. There is no doubt that the H/K would sing wonderfully in that back room.

Upgrading a component in one system, and then moving the component to be upgraded to one of the other systems is a practice I've used for years.

Putting a Cadenza black in the H/K along with a phono pre or step up transformer is certainly an option. I could then get a more entry level table for the back room to replace the failed one, perhaps installing my 2M black in that table. I'm honestly not in the ideal position for dropping $8-10K on a new turntable setup. But you know how it is when we start looking at these things. And the analog vinyl hole can be a very deep one to start falling into, as we all know....
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No. 35


Main System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint ultra minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint ultra minis, MS750 Music Server on Rollerblock Jr's, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Pioneer PL-L1000 TT/Audio Technica ATS52W2, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable

High Resolution Source: HP Omen 17" Gaming Laptop
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