Subs for Salon2

[Ricjor1]

I just received the SVS SB16 Ultra, replacing an SVS PB2000 that I used in my HT/surround system. I'm trying to use the SVS SB16 in my 2-channel and home theater system.

[Pampero]

Originally Posted by Rex Anderson

Can't remember what year, but we bought a Crown RTA2 when it first came out. One of the guys on my team had an early version of SMAART (maybe version 5?) that we used to dial in a pair of JL Audio F112's with some Lipinski L-707's in one of our control rooms. That was a great full range monitoring system.

We hired Doug Jones (Heyser award winning acoustician) to help with room treatment in our facilities and he used TEF so I got to learn a bit about that.

I always wanted to get further into it, just didn't have the time before I retired. I need to do some work tuning the PA system at the church where I mix live sound, but they need to buy a crossover/processor to make it possible to do any further adjustments. If they want to lay out the money for gear and send me to a training course, I'm willing to put forth the effort and learn more. We're meeting in a few days to discuss plans for next year and it's on my list.

I think (but I'm hazy, memory being what it is) that the RTA2 was the device that replaced the BADAP in Crown's line. None of the old RTAs hold a candle to a TEF or SMART rig and then there's always MLSSA as a further option. All of them can get it done. Ultimately it's about the knowledge, ears and experience of the person pointing the speakers and turning the knobs than it is which measurement package. That said, I think SMAART is the most common and universally used software when discussing large scale PA, as at your church. I believe they are on V8.0 now. We had one of the original JBL/SIA packages on a dedicated PC...all the reps were given the software... but sadly I never took the time to learn it thoroughly nor have I kept pace with the latest developments. Npw that I have the time, taking a full course would be great fun

The requirement to get both good sound and maximum gain before feedback makes tuning a big PA an art as well as a science and perhaps an even greater challenge than tuning a home playback system, though the basics and science are identical. Having said that, I am NOT the man to get it done, but I know where to find him!

I received the SB16 today. I'll report on it in a week or two after I've had a chance to push it around bit. Initial impressions are: big box, looks nice.

[Pampero]

I played around with the SB16 a bit today. The app works flawlessly on my iPad and makes adjusting the available parameters a breeze. There's an included remote control, but I haven't used it as the app gets everything done quite gracefully.

Fit and finish is excellent and the sub paired via bluetooth to my IOS thing with no drama at all. The piano black mates will with the black Revel baffle when the grille is off. This sub has a lot of power, almost certainly more than I will be able to fully deploy in my room. I'm not satisfied that I've found the best placement for it yet though. I have it off to the left side of my stereo pair, about a foot off the corner walls. I need to play with that but it is heavy! Moving it will necessarily occur in considered steps as my room is carpeted which makes pushing it around that much harder.

Over the next day or three I will take measurements to see where that lands me. I've only played by ear so far. Getting into the ballpark was not too hard, but obtaining a tight integration...getting on "bass" so to speak, will take some science. It seems SVS's recommendations for the low pass filter settings, (31Hz, 24dB/octave) are what the Salon2s prefer in my room and I'm not at all surprised. I figured adding a sub to these speakers might be a matter of subtleties and first impressions bear that out. It seems to require a light touch as the Salon 2s have such strong, extended bass already. I'd thought a low crossover point (well, "low" low pass in this case) would be required. That has been borne out and matches SVS's thinking on the matter. I'm running this sub around -15dB and that seems about right if judged solely by ear. Much more stick and the output becomes too much at my listening position on program that has a lot of LF energy. I still need to get levels properly matched and I look forward to doing some measurements to accomplish that over the next days. I've got a nasty cold and that has slowed me down some. This thing moves some considerable air. Das ist alles for now!

[Pio]

Lew

I have been integrating subs into my 2 channel systems for well over 10 years. Placement will be key, as you well know, to getting any sub to integrate.

And, don't let your eyes fool you... In my current 2-chnl set up - one sub is just behind the left Revel and the driver is facing to the right instead of the room and the 2nd sub is to the right of my couch facing the couch. Since the waves are omni-directional, where the driver faces shouldn't have an effect, but I can only think the room is coming to play here.

The best sound that I have gotten is placing the 2nd sub roughly 3/4 of the way back from the listening position, but wifey finally put her foot down and said "NO!"... hahahaa

For a great test, get music from bassist Marcus Miller. If at decent levels, the bass isnt hitting your chest, keep fiddling...

[Pampero]

Thanks Pio. I have work to do here, this is not looking to be a plug and play. I'll get some Marcus and use it along with my other material.

It's far too easy to get a lot of bloat and overdrive the room as it's organized right now. As soon as I feel a bit better I'll jump on it.

[Pampero]

Well, it's taken some time to get the SB16 into the ballpark. I moved it out of the corner where it was just exciting the room too much. Things were shaking and rattling all over but no matter how I tweaked it I couldn't achieve a satisfying balance. A dB or two of gain would make the low end go flabby and nasty, while backing it off didn't achieve any obvious superiority. Having pulled it a few feet out into the room and adjusted the phase to match, it now aligns far better without exiting every resonance and mode the room has. I have yet to do measurements (so lazy!) but I am picking up a JL F113v2 today or tomorrow and will have the ability to run them off against each other. In the meantime, the SVS has rendered a pleasant and significant improvement with judicious application of the loud knob. My current gain settings on it range around -10dB at which level the low end is round and full but retains audiophile grade crispness and timbre. I have not touched the PEQ yet, but I am using the room compensation (set to 25Hz). One benefit: I play the system at generally lower levels than previously yet gain superior sonic satisfaction. I am eager to see what a measured alignment will yield, something the JL will do automatically but requires instrumentation with the SVS. You pay your money and take your choice.

Still have this annoying cold and it is no help!

[Pio]

Originally Posted by Pampero

Well, it's taken some time to get the SB16 into the ballpark. I moved it out of the corner where it was just exciting the room too much. Things were shaking and rattling all over but no matter how I tweaked it I couldn't achieve a satisfying balance. A dB or two of gain would make the low end go flabby and nasty, while backing it off didn't achieve any obvious superiority. Having pulled it a few feet out into the room and adjusted the phase to match, it now aligns far better without exiting every resonance and mode the room has. I have yet to do measurements (so lazy!) but I am picking up a JL F113v2 today or tomorrow and will have the ability to run them off against each other. In the meantime, the SVS has rendered a pleasant and significant improvement with judicious application of the loud knob. My current gain settings on it range around -10dB at which level the low end is round and full but retains audiophile grade crispness and timbre. I have not touched the PEQ yet, but I am using the room compensation (set to 25Hz). One benefit: I play the system at generally lower levels than previously yet gain superior sonic satisfaction. I am eager to see what a measured alignment will yield, something the JL will do automatically but requires instrumentation with the SVS. You pay your money and take your choice.

Still have this annoying cold and it is no help!

Great update Lew! What crossover are you using? Also - FEEL BETTER!

[Ricjor1]

Originally Posted by Pampero

Well, it's taken some time to get the SB16 into the ballpark. I moved it out of the corner where it was just exciting the room too much. Things were shaking and rattling all over but no matter how I tweaked it I couldn't achieve a satisfying balance. A dB or two of gain would make the low end go flabby and nasty, while backing it off didn't achieve any obvious superiority. Having pulled it a few feet out into the room and adjusted the phase to match, it now aligns far better without exiting every resonance and mode the room has. I have yet to do measurements (so lazy!) but I am picking up a JL F113v2 today or tomorrow and will have the ability to run them off against each other. In the meantime, the SVS has rendered a pleasant and significant improvement with judicious application of the loud knob. My current gain settings on it range around -10dB at which level the low end is round and full but retains audiophile grade crispness and timbre. I have not touched the PEQ yet, but I am using the room compensation (set to 25Hz). One benefit: I play the system at generally lower levels than previously yet gain superior sonic satisfaction. I am eager to see what a measured alignment will yield, something the JL will do automatically but requires instrumentation with the SVS. You pay your money and take your choice.

Still have this annoying cold and it is no help!

I'm curious as to how the JL F113v2 will compare to the SB16. When I had SB13 Ultra's, I compared them to JL Audio F110v2s and strongly preferred the JL F110v2. I quickly sold my SB13s and purchased a pair of F110v2s.

[Pampero]

Originally Posted by Ricjor1

I'm curious as to how the JL F113v2 will compare to the SB16. When I had SB13 Ultra's, I compared them to JL Audio F110v2s and strongly preferred the JL F110v2. I quickly sold my SB13s and purchased a pair of F110v2s.

I went to pick up the JL today and discovered I could not fit the box into my car. Rookie mistake! I will pick it up tomorrow using my wife's wagon. Meanwhile, the SB16 is sounding better all the time. It looks to be a very competent piece, although I have no prior experience with subs at home. Not so with pro subs, but that's a very different game. I'm learning anew!

[Pampero]

Originally Posted by Pio

Great update Lew! What crossover are you using? Also - FEEL BETTER!

Pio, no crossover, but I have played with ducking the output of the amp by cutting the 25Hz eq through the C52. Doing it that way adds another variable I could do without. A crossover would make it so much more precise, but I don't feel like substituting the preamp section of my mid-grade Denon receiver or bypassing my C52 and using my Oppo's crossove/management for alignment. I'm sure you understand! This is an advantage to JL, since the management is built in but even then I still need a high pass for the Revels. I didn't think about this when I dove in. Chasing the dragon is becoming a routine. My wife has been remarkably pleasant and compliant but how far can I push this?

I've been eyeing the JL CR1, also been wracking my brain to come up with a decent analog pro crossover. There are very few left on the market, and the ones that are don't pique my interest. I may borrow a Rane AC22 (B version, which has balanced connectors) from a friend. It offers the preferred 24dB/octave LR filters that match the Revel, but it's no longer in production. If it works, it would be an inexpensive approach and I'm sure I could scour one up. Bryston's crossover certainly would be another option.

I'm feeling better but this cold is hanging in and I still feel kind'a crappy Low energy mostly.