Bowers and Wilkins 802 verses Focal 1038 BE

[raidho]

B&Ws might perhaps be easier speakers to listen to and to look at, which is some of the reasons why they are so very popular. They've done well 20 odd years ago to achieve what they have done with their 800 series speakers, but instead of pushing the top, they made more on the lower ends so that the top seems much better. Focal has been innovating a lot of late, and they have done very well for the last 2-3 years, and have really caught up with b&ws in terms of popularity amongst "audiophiles".

enit, is the same for McIntosh.
Is sure a good brand but what your write for B&W is exactly for McIntosh gears.

I like B&W but lie write I "dream" a pair of Utopia in the next time.
The Diablo is a very great speakers. of course better the new Scala v2.

[enit]

Originally Posted by raidho

enit, is the same for McIntosh. Is sure a good brand but what your write for B&W is exactly for McIntosh gears. I like B&W but lie write I "dream" a pair of Utopia in the next time. The Diablo is a very great speakers. of course better the new Scala v2.

I really beg to differ on your comment on McIntosh. There's much more to McIntosh that allows speakers to do the best, but perhaps has been severely misunderstood because of other electronics design, development approaches- but I believe it would be relevant on a different thread.

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[Briz Vegaas]

B&W802 vs Focal. You need big amps for the 802D I feel. I have loved it with Nemo mono blocks. With other amps. " meh" comes to mind.

If that's not your thing and you want a faster more coherent speaker, that's easier to drive get a pair of Vivid B1, or even K1 if you have a really big room (B1 is plenty, I don't want more bass in a medium sized room). B1 was my choice between the three. Better drivers, better engineered, more interesting to look at. Only problem, people love them and want to touch. If they are without grills it's " look, don't touch".

[raidho]

I really beg to differ on your comment on McIntosh. There's much more to McIntosh that allows speakers to do the best, but perhaps has been severely misunderstood because of other electronics design, development approaches- but I believe it would be relevant on a different thread.

enit, I respect you and your idea. if you find Mc your target in the high end ok, is your choice your taste.
yourself write over B&W

They are nicely voiced, easy to listen to. But not a "high fidelity" speaker comparing with what's available today.

I agree that a Focal Utopia is a great and amazing speaker. anyway I like the B&W too. say that the B&W is not "hifi" is really not true.
I had almost all the "eighter" from B&W and now a Focal like me but I dont can say that B&W is only a brand made of $$$ - design and name. a lot of technology is inside this brand more from other on the market.

style

[enit]

Originally Posted by raidho

enit, I respect you and your idea. if you find Mc your target in the high end ok, is your choice your taste. yourself write over B&W I agree that a Focal Utopia is a great and amazing speaker. anyway I like the B&W too. say that the B&W is not "hifi" is really not true. I had almost all the "eighter" from B&W and now a Focal like me but I dont can say that B&W is only a brand made of $$$ - design and name. a lot of technology is inside this brand more from other on the market. style

I don't know how one does better than 2,000 watts of power drawing from the wall, splitting 1,000 per polarity into separate chassis, achieving very excellent signal to noise and harmonic distortion, and intermodulation distortion.

You don't have to be too expensive to be the best. But how do you get better than MC2kw? Any challenges?

I give respect to b&w. But i also think most of their innovations have been stuck from 20-odd years ago. Having manufacturing of 600 and CMI to china, also not good. At least keeping 800 in Uk. But unlike McIntosh, b&w has been stagnant in the high end.

See McIntosh speaker designs over the years and how it's evolved. All you need to do, is remove the B&W tweeter section and put in a number of watts into it-200 watts, maybe even 100 watts. And see how it blows. It will not be the case with the focal inverted beryllium and the McIntosh multiple tweeters. No problem with 200 watts for the bass in b&w, sure. A contributing non linear design. Singer moves back and forth at different loud to soft volumes. Not the case at all with McIntosh. Less with the case of focal.

That's only one of the contributing factors why many brands would have overtaken b&w in the technical aspect.

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[raidho]

???

Sorry but if you think that 2k watt from Mcintosh give you agreat powerampli I dont understand hwat is state of the art in the high end for you.
you listen at 2k in your room? wow in the studios they dont so over!

really!
you think that a Mc speaker is at the same level from a Wilson Audio Sasha or Magico or ?!?!

A Passlabs x1000.5 or the 600.5 sound a lot better from the Mc.
A Accustic Arts AMPIII is sure not far ...Constellation Audio, FM Acoustics, Soulution Audio, ...no word!!

I can do a class D with 3k watt if your "value" is the Watt. but if is so you don't are in right state of the art thought.

Mc speakers? please whit a price from 5k. Ok, but not more. other amplifier brands have do a speaker: a really flop like Mcintosh.

but this is very OT.

Focal is a very good speaker. I like the Dialblo and the Scala (for my room) but - i repeat - B&W is not below.

You really think that all is "marked" McIntosh is made in USA?
maybe assembled..... (like Apple computer???)

pose a question to a really high end lover if a Mcintosh amplifier sound at the level from a Passlabs or a Plinius, KR audio tube ampli, Gryphon, Spectral....??

look over the desing!!!!

anyway: I like too Mc: a combo c2500 with a Mc452 is a good system but versus a xp20 with Xa100.5 dont have chance.
this dont mean that the Mc have a "bad" sound but for a good highender dont is at the level from the other system.

Mcintosh with the "new" 452, 601 & Co. (in place from 252,402,501,..) have changed your sound: a gamble?
or something has changed also for economic reasons?

Mcintosh had too money problems and has be "buyed" from a bigger company. the "only USA market was not enough to continue the business!!

[jeffkrag]

Heard the 1038s a while ago and they did not impress me like the older B&W 802D did, which I lusted after until i got lucky with a pair of Revel Salon 2s. The Focals had a very nice top end but sounded thin with not enough low-mids and low end umph. I like some weight and texture and intimacy, and the B&Ws did that in spades. Have not heard the new 802Di, but would guess its more of same or better.

[enit]

Originally Posted by raidho

??? Sorry but if you think that 2k watt from Mcintosh give you agreat powerampli I dont understand hwat is state of the art in the high end for you. you listen at 2k in your room? wow in the studios they dont so over! really! you think that a Mc speaker is at the same level from a Wilson Audio Sasha or Magico or ?!?! A Passlabs x1000.5 or the 600.5 sound a lot better from the Mc. A Accustic Arts AMPIII is sure not far ...Constellation Audio, FM Acoustics, Soulution Audio, ...no word!! I can do a class D with 3k watt if your "value" is the Watt. but if is so you don't are in right state of the art thought. Mc speakers? please whit a price from 5k. Ok, but not more. other amplifier brands have do a speaker: a really flop like Mcintosh. but this is very OT. Focal is a very good speaker. I like the Dialblo and the Scala (for my room) but - i repeat - B&W is not below. You really think that all is "marked" McIntosh is made in USA? maybe assembled..... (like Apple computer???) pose a question to a really high end lover if a Mcintosh amplifier sound at the level from a Passlabs or a Plinius, KR audio tube ampli, Gryphon, Spectral....?? look over the desing!!!! anyway: I like too Mc: a combo c2500 with a Mc452 is a good system but versus a xp20 with Xa100.5 dont have chance. this dont mean that the Mc have a "bad" sound but for a good highender dont is at the level from the other system. Mcintosh with the "new" 452, 601 & Co. (in place from 252,402,501,..) have changed your sound: a gamble? or something has changed also for economic reasons? Mcintosh had too money problems and has be "buyed" from a bigger company. the "only USA market was not enough to continue the business!!

Originally Posted by raidho

??? Sorry but if you think that 2k watt from Mcintosh give you agreat powerampli I dont understand hwat is state of the art in the high end for you. you listen at 2k in your room? wow in the studios they dont so over! really! you think that a Mc speaker is at the same level from a Wilson Audio Sasha or Magico or ?!?! A Passlabs x1000.5 or the 600.5 sound a lot better from the Mc. A Accustic Arts AMPIII is sure not far ...Constellation Audio, FM Acoustics, Soulution Audio, ...no word!! I can do a class D with 3k watt if your "value" is the Watt. but if is so you don't are in right state of the art thought. Mc speakers? please whit a price from 5k. Ok, but not more. other amplifier brands have do a speaker: a really flop like Mcintosh. but this is very OT. Focal is a very good speaker. I like the Dialblo and the Scala (for my room) but - i repeat - B&W is not below. You really think that all is "marked" McIntosh is made in USA? maybe assembled..... (like Apple computer???) pose a question to a really high end lover if a Mcintosh amplifier sound at the level from a Passlabs or a Plinius, KR audio tube ampli, Gryphon, Spectral....?? look over the desing!!!! anyway: I like too Mc: a combo c2500 with a Mc452 is a good system but versus a xp20 with Xa100.5 dont have chance. this dont mean that the Mc have a "bad" sound but for a good highender dont is at the level from the other system. Mcintosh with the "new" 452, 601 & Co. (in place from 252,402,501,..) have changed your sound: a gamble? or something has changed also for economic reasons? Mcintosh had too money problems and has be "buyed" from a bigger company. the "only USA market was not enough to continue the business!!

I think you don't know high end without the respect of McIntosh. It does not need to be expensive to be good. It needs to be correct. High distortion results in different tones presented to the speaker. Always missing in mid range. Capacitors run full value, short ended circuitry, runs hot, breaks down easy. Thumpy bass, not deep enough, bright highs.

127db STN is good enough for me to dream to achieve. Audio research doesn't believe that lowering distortion will allow better fidelity. How do you think that will translate to listening? Good for the ears for sure. Accurate? No.

Have you heard the unyielding sound of xrt2k against alexanders? The Wilsons couldn't even handle the power. It clipped. And clipped. And clipped. It's a good speaker. It's not as linear as the mc, it's not high power handling as the mc. It's got lesser drivers yet costs more. It's styles nice tho. Xrt2k images the best, totally symmetrical, wide dispersion. Immense depth. Not even getting into technicalities like more
Consistent off axis performance.

It sounds more effortless than any other speaker I've heard, and that's a big thing when it comes to high end systems.
I've heard million dollar systems that people dream to own, and they have one constant character, effortlessness-no strain.

Try playing high levels in the B&ws, versus the McIntosh xr200. In your words, "no word". No comparison. Xr200 sounds much bigger, much stronger, more effortless, constant imaging and staging. B&w 800, all over the place. Why you comment McIntosh speakers not the same level as the others is not a fair comment.

Wilsons are great speakers- I won't comment too much. OT. I think B&w 802 is good, just not precise enough comparing to focal and McIntosh. And sounds lean and thin with Classe amps. With mc amps, they are nice and relaxing to hear. Mc with focal is more accurate in tone, a flatter measured mid highs as compared.

I won't comment on passé- OT. I heard it two days ago. It was good with b&w, but not accurate. Nice Bass, ok highs, richer mid. Nice to listen. No doubt.

It's a shame you have had bad experiences with McIntosh and/or don't think they are amongst the best. I'll tell you engineers from other brands still think mc275 was the finest and best designed tube amplifier today. Mc1000 is also very respected, as the very first balanced mono block amplifier.

I'm not too sure if your impressions are gathered because of what people talk about here and there and reviews that McIntosh seldom participate in.

When a focal is set up right, it is great. I set up a system, and president of Vitus audio told my close friend-voluntarily, it was one of the best he had heard. It was a McIntosh and utopia speaker. This was mid this year. He didn't have to say anything, I was not even using his amplifier.

The 1038 comes from a similar philosophy, you just need to optimize it.

I met a sound engineer who said to me that abbey studios seldom produce great albums these days because of the system used in there.
B&w and Classe tri-amp. It doesn't translate. Go figure.

Again, I'm not saying b&w makes poor Speakers. I think like Sonus Faber, they are very beautiful for a relaxing sound, they have different frequency curves.

I'm sad that you think that way of McIntosh products, and your impression doesn't seem like your own. Try to honestly measure them. Study them. And you will appreciate its Beauty. Trust in the correct science that can also translate to an emotive performance, and wander beyond paper specifications. Do a recording of your voice and some instruments. Use garage band if you like. Pan instruments, from low bass to piano, see how you as a self engineer like them comparing to others. Use a decent monitor like krk. See which system translates your Recording the most accurate.

You can even play your sound from the speaker, or play some white noise or guitar tone, piano tone and record again with the mic, see if the waves Can match identically to the source. I guarantee you, the McIntosh does.

Focal is close too. More lively and faster even.

One of the things I did before I found McIntosh to be the most accurate.

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[raidho]

1.
I like McIntosh. is a good brand but is not a state of the art of HIGH END.
2k. are accurate? oly why you have 2k in the "hand"? forget this...
2.
I respect your idea but don't is my idea of a really HIGH END system.
3.
please if you like Mcintosh for me is ok, better if you think McIntosh is the better choice to have a amazing system in the HIGH END i'am happy for you.
anyway IF I CAN CHOICE from a C2500 & a pair of MC601 versus a preampli ARC Ref5 SE or a Pass Xp20 with XA100.5 I go with the Pass combo.
respect my choice.
At the same price Mcintosh IMHO and for almost the serius dealer vs. a combo from other brand like Pass or MUCH OTHERS Mcintosh dont have any chance. Sound good but is not a state of the art brand/gears combo.

4. Mc Intosh speakers from all Mcintosh dealer are not good speaker or better yes are good speaker BUT Ovepriced for the performance offert.

5. Classe amplifier have notthing to do with B&W speakers. Classe amplifier are like Rotel. not much more.

6. B&W speakers , like Sonus Faber, McIntosh, Focal, Magico are good produtcs yes but the synergie with the other gears from the system make the difference.
Mcintosh speaker is a big flop. try a blind test with a B&W eighter or Focal utopia with a McIntosh speaker: of course in a system NOT all Mc. 2 from 10 person dont go in the Mc direction.....

7. Mcintosh is not a entry level price gear. if you are sure that a Mc speaker with a pre & ampli NOT Mcintosh sound to the Top you are very a special person.

8. I respect your idea but we are over 2 diferent planet. Your "dream setup" is not a high end - state of the art system. sound good but is not a hig end system. with 2 channel system "very great high end" you go have the same sound.

No more to say.

Focal is a great sepaker SURE. I will have a Utopia Scala or Diblo with the 802si in my room. I SPEAK FROM SPEAKERS.
Like I like Dynaudio, Sonus Faber, Magico, Wilson Audio...
bey enit.

[New to Mac]

BORING! You're both trying to position as fact something that is, by definition, a value judgement...an opinion. The beauty of free markets is that they are the ultimate democracy. You can vote with your money. If you don't like McIntosh, don't buy it. If you think B&W speakers are great, spend your money on them. Saying you respect the other guy's opinion and then proceeding to try and make a case as to why it's wrong based on "because I said so" is not only faulty reasoning, it's tedious. And now I will exercise my right to choose and not look at this thread again.