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Subwoofers 80hz and Down under!

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Old 09-25-2017, 07:45 PM
jzzmusician jzzmusician is online now
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Default Subwoofer advice please

I'm hoping to find a little bit of clarity with your help.

I've got the itch to buy a pair of modestly priced subs, (SVS SB13 Ultra or REL S/3 SHO).

Here is my dilemma; I use a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP driving a pair of rebuilt and completely upgraded Quad 2805 speakers.

The PrimaLuna has one subwoofer out. Okay, great I think.

My dilemma is when I research proper subwoofer integration almost all posts and articles state that an external crossover is needed to really dial in the sound.

Obviously I can't do that with the PrimaLuna.

It would be less expensive to sell the Quads and upgrade, (a topic I'd love to talk about) than to buy a new front end and hope that the subs worked out for me.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated and if you're ever in SE Washington state I would repay your kind advice with world class bbq and cool, refreshing beverages.

Thank you in advance,

Bob
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:20 PM
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Bob,

It is true that you will not achieve truly integrated subs without an electronic crossover. That said, you still have to look at the practicalities of the situation. I would go with one sub (music is recorded in mono in the subwoofer's range, even when it is a stereo recording, with very exceptions). Use the crawl method to find the ideal sub placement. Ideally buy a sub with variable phase, low pass, high pass and slope choices. Or you can insist on ideal and do what I did, but it's a black hole as my signature shows.
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:27 PM
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Bob

Look at the Rythmik F12SE. You can buy a pair for less than $2k shipped. Hook them up via speaker level. Vandersteen subs have been hooked up using this method for decades as have REL subwoofers. When I got my pair of Rythmik's to replace the Vandersteen's I tried them first using the preamp outs and then switched back to the speaker level connection I was more comfortable with. They can be "dialed in" without the use of an extra external crossover.
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Old 03-18-2018, 03:48 PM
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The recent thinking is that subs are best integrated by connecting them to the speaker level connection, in parallel to the mains. Has anyone did some series listening or measuring the amp performance when subs connected like that?
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:50 PM
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I think that there may be a misunderstanding here by the OP with respect to REL. I just ordered an REL S/5 SHO to go with my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated and Harbeth 30.1s. It is generally recommended with RELs that you use the supplied high level cable that is attached to the amp's speaker terminals - you don't use the amp's mono sub output at all. There is no external crossover necessary - your main speakers run full range and you dial in the REL to compliment them. The set up explanation is here: http://www.musicdirect.com/documents/pdf/ARELR218.pdf

Last edited by ChrisAZ; 03-24-2018 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:40 AM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukster View Post
The recent thinking is that subs are best integrated by connecting them to the speaker level connection, in parallel to the mains. Has anyone did some series listening or measuring the amp performance when subs connected like that?
Yukster -- If you're still with us (your PM appears turned off), please take a look at this poorly titled (but too late now!) thread and give me the benefit of your experience over the past year:

https://www.audioaficionado.org/show...486#post957486

I've raised some related questions about hookup. Basically I was advised to hook them in series, rather than parallel -- let the cross-over in the sub send the higher frequencies on to the mains. It's not clear this is the best approach, but I'm limited by budget and by not having a pre-amp out on my integrated amp. -- Clark2
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Old 03-17-2019, 04:18 PM
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REL and a few others recommend speaker level connections. The problem with this method is that(especially in HT setups) your mains then handle the entire frequency range. You have to handle any overlap between the mains and sub and there is no way to correctly time align the subs with the mains.

This works ok for 2 channel systems but falls short in HT applications.

The big advantage here is the easy hookup and it works with all but a few McIntosh amps.

An external crossover with variable time delay is the best technical approach. Most good HT pre-pros use this technique. Properly implemented the results can be stunning.

Some subs have an output for the mains - this is usually just a capacitor high pass filter and the results here will be very unpredictable and totally dependent on the impedance curve of your mains. Not recommended.

I prefer the technically correct time aligned method, but many people are very satisfied with the REL speaker level connection method.
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark2 View Post
Yukster -- If you're still with us (your PM appears turned off), please take a look at this poorly titled (but too late now!) thread and give me the benefit of your experience over the past year:

https://www.audioaficionado.org/show...486#post957486
Clark2.......Yukster is not a Subscriber. His Basic membership does not provide Private Message privileges.
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:49 PM
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I'll second the Rythmik F12se with out a doubt.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:37 AM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
...An external crossover with variable time delay is the best technical approach...
Time-delay (in addition to high-pass) of the signal to the mains is certainly appealing but would require a new amp with line-level pre-out/power-in connections in addition to an external cross-over -- too many more $$ for my budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
Some subs have an output for the mains - this is usually just a capacitor high pass filter and the results here will be very unpredictable and totally dependent on the impedance curve of your mains. Not recommended...
W9TR -- It took me a while to digest this post, but again it's very enlightening. (I think you have answered here a lot of my questions in the other thread.) I'll try to find out more details on the cross-over used in the Totem KIN Sub, though the best approach may be simply to take one on approval and experiment... -- Clark2
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