Setting up Amati Futura's

[W9TR]

The Futura's are imaging well beyond the lateral positions of the speakers. Now working toe in and rake angle for soundstage height and depth. These speakers are very responsive to setup. I'm listening to Imogene Heap "Little Bird" and it's very wide and very deep. I am smitten.
Tom

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by Yamaki

Tom...they look fantastic and I love the arrangement you have there. I use a Sumiko "Master Set" for my speakers. I do the equilateral triangle first, then follow the process shown below. Good luck!!! The Principle: Master Set is based on the idea of matching sound pressure between the speakers creating a single sound source. The idea is to &ldquo;fix&rdquo; one speaker on one side of the listening room, and then to match the other speaker&rsquo;s sound pressure to the &ldquo;fixed&rdquo; speaker. The goal is to have each speaker pressurize it&rsquo;s own half of the room, with no center overlap of sound, cancelling and competing and fuzzing the center image. The Result A perfect left-right stereo music image with undistorted sound from each instrument and voice. While this may be the goal of every setup ever devised, Master Set achieves this with great success. The Needed Tools: The only items needed to perform Master Set are your ears, a setup recording, and a small level. Master Set can be performed by one or two persons. It&rsquo;s much easier with two people, but that is not a limiting factor at all. Master Set is judged only by your own ears, there is no other measuring of any kind. The speakers need to be moved, often in very small increments. Spikes will need to be removed, or have something under them to allow easy movement. Furniture sliders under the spikes work very well. _Edit_ I didn't remove the spikes. I agree it would have been easier but once I had them set, I didn't want to mess with the placement any further. <M> The Set Up Recording: Ballad of a Runaway Horse by Jennifer Warnes and Rob Wasserman. You can find this song on the cd Duets, by Rob Wasserman. This song works because of its simplicity and the steadiness of the voice line and the bass line. The voice is perfectly centered and solo. The bass is slow, steady, and easy to hear. Since this is the only real cost involved, the cost is minimal. _Edit_ You can use a different song if you like. What you are looking for here is a track you are familiar with, a reference track so to speak, that you can use for setting the image and detail. I do like that song, however. <M> Step 1: The beginning set up Master Set is most successful when the speakers are set against the long wall in the room. However, if the short wall is long enough to allow enough space between the speakers and not be too close to the sidewall, then this can be used. Speakers are set against the rear wall perpendicular to it. Speakers and listener are at points of an equilateral triangle. Spacing is approximate and dependant on room size. Listening position should be at least 2 feet out from a wall behind the listener, and speakers should be as far away from side walls as practical. Listen to the recording and adjust speakers as needed to get a good solid center image of the singer. Adjust by moving speakers together or apart in small increments and listening to changes. This should only take a few minutes unless you have an irregular room, as I do, in which case this can take longer. Step 2: Setting the first speaker This step will set one speaker into position and is based on finding the smoothest bass response. Either speaker can be used. With the volume at a decent level, move the speaker out from wall about 6 inches, toeing in directly to listening position. Sound should still be perfectly centered. Continue to move speaker out at 1 inch increments until sound begins to move toward the speaker being moved. Move speaker in progressively smaller increments until sound is totally from the moved speaker. Mark this spot. Now, search for the best bass by trying to find the bass nodes. Move speaker out in roughly 1/8th inchincrements listening to the bass notes. I find it easiest to use a tape measure here so that the movements are not too much. Slight accentuation of one of the bass notes is a bass node. Rod tells me there are 5 or 6 nodes. You are searching for a setting where the bass notes are somewhat even and don&rsquo;t go &ldquo;plonk&rdquo; or something like that. I find it easiest to hear things in the first 2 verses of the song, and I tend to repeat them over and over as I go. It may help a lot if you turn the speaker against the wall out 45 degrees towards the sidewall, but still have it playing. Move the speaker in very small increments and mark settings. Continue to move speaker back and forth until you are comfortable with the sound. Take a long time with this! Once this speaker is set in place it is fixed and there is no more adjustment to it. Time can fly right by - an hour is about right for first time. If you have a hard time hearing differences, as has often happened to me, well, take a break. And I also find that if differences are hard to find, just guess at what you think is best and go from there. Set the speaker in place with spikes installed, or whatever is needed for permanent placement. Level the speaker. This speaker will not be moved again. NOTE: Do not be tempted to turn off the other speaker while doing this. You need both speakers playing in order to properly find the setting where the sound all goes to the moved speaker as this is the point where the sound decouples from the rear wall and the other speaker and is the beginning point for finding the bass setting. Keep the speaker as level as possible while doing all the moving, etc, and keep the speaker toed in directly at the listener. Step 3: Setting the other speaker. This step will move the other speaker into place and be adjusted to match the sound pressure of the already placed speaker. Move the speaker out from the wall to approach the approximate distance as the fixed speaker is out from the wall, toeing speaker directly in to listening position, and keeping speaker level. Mark this spot. Move speaker in slight increments in or out from this setting listening for a centered voice. The sound pressure of the two speakers is equal when the voice is perfectly centered with a tight sound. Listen for slight variations in the voice weighted to one side or the other or a slight pulling apart of the voice. Move in very small increments as often as necessary until you are sure that you have a perfectly centered voice and tight sound. You cannot take too long to do this, and hour can pass by quickly! Take as much time as you need to feel like you have found it! From a seated centered listening position, the voice centers up quite easily. However, you may not have balanced sound. Try sitting directly on axis with each speaker. When the sound stays stable and centered at all three positions, then you have really close to balanced and equal sound pressure from each speaker into the room. You can tweak the midrange setting at this point by varying the toe in from direct at listener to being able to see the inside of the speaker cabinet. That&rsquo;s only about ½ inch of movement, so very small incremental movements are needed. My own experience has been that I have been unable to hear any differences while doing this. When you are comfortable with the sound, set the speaker permanently in place and level the speaker. Step 4: Finalizing and Listening Play some familiar recordings and listen carefully to the left-right stereo image balance. Listen to make sure each side is equal in sound. If one side is slightly louder, move the speaker from Step 3 as follows: in to wall if this side is louder, out from wall if this side is lower in sound. Move in very small increments. Keep at it until everything is just THERE. It's a bit like fine focus on an camera lens. Listen to music for a few days, or a week, and get familar with the sound. Redo this step as needed until everything is just perfect. You'll know it!

I see the OP has had success with his setup so I would like to ask a related question concerning how this procedure would apply to my Betas which are dipoles???

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by crwilli

I see the OP has had success with his setup so I would like to ask a related question concerning how this procedure would apply to my Betas which are dipoles???

Dipoles setup with the same considerations. However Betas are only dipoles in the mids and top. You also have the crossover considerations.
So Betas would be a bit more complex than Futuras. Woofer towers and panels must be coupled to the room and each other.

[W9TR]

Bill,
Thank you. This has been a very involving experience. It has been humbling. I am nowhere near done.
Tom

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by W9TR

Bill,
Thank you. This has been a very involving experience. It has been humbling. I am nowhere near done.
Tom

Tis fun getting there that is for sure.

Certainly Rod jumped in after i originally showed him the process with an enthusiasm I have rarely if ever seen since.

[W9TR]

Any tips on setting rake angle? I'm finding small changes are making big differences in timbre and imaging.
Tom

[KMC45]

Tom,

I've heard "Runaway Horse" so many times in my house for speaker set up that i'm afraid my brain will explode if I ever hear it again.

The Masters setup has been done in my house by guys trained at Sumiko and it has worked well.

So has the Cardas method where you measure and calculate a bunch.

With how good your speakers look, you want them to sound good too.

[W9TR]

Thanks Keith,
We're now talking centimeters and significant improvements. I'm like a dog on a bone. Lots of minor changes and deep listening.

I haven't used the JW tune- I'm afraid to ruin it. But lots of simple string bass and female vocals are in the mix.

Kelly loves the way they look, and she laughed at the last pair of speakers I had in the room.

As the Dude would say, "They really pull the room together!"

[schneice]

Amazing system! Congrats.

For rake - I think it is easiest to start where you know it is wrong and you know which way you need to move. I like starting with the speakers angled too far out where the sound stage is too thin in the middle and gradually work my way in. At some point that nice thick image will begin to get muddy and I know I've gone too far.

I've read that in general you want the axis of the tweeters to cross a few feet behind your head in the listening position. But that is pretty rough. Much prefer to do by ear.

Since, I'm no pro - I find that I can get it to 90%-95% on my first attempt and then have to dial it in over a series of sessions.

Congrats again!

[Venere]

Originally Posted by schneice

Amazing system! Congrats.

For rake - I think it is easiest to start where you know it is wrong and you know which way you need to move. I like starting with the speakers angled too far out where the sound stage is too thin in the middle and gradually work my way in. At some point that nice thick image will begin to get muddy and I know I've gone too far.

I've read that in general you want the axis of the tweeters to cross a few feet behind your head in the listening position. But that is pretty rough. Much prefer to do by ear.

Since, I'm no pro - I find that I can get it to 90%-95% on my first attempt and then have to dial it in over a series of sessions.

Congrats again!

Sounds like you are describing toe-in rather than rake. I think of rake as the vertical angle of the speaker in relation to the floor. Toe-in as the horizontal angle of the speaker in relation to the listener. I have always taken toe-in very seriously in my set up since it impacts soundstage and timbre, but to be honest I have never really paid much attention to rake. Experimented a little with minor adjustments to the height of the spikes and could never really hear a difference, certainly not as much difference as what proper toe-in makes (to my ears anyway). May have to revisit that as Sonus faber and other manufacturers clearly takes rake pretty seriously.