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  #31  
Old 05-20-2016, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
Craig.......I want to point out the instructions for the starting point as an equilateral triangle also states that this includes the speakers being against the walls. It is easy to overlook that part of the instructions.
Dan,

That is confusing since you will not end up in an equilateral triangle and in fact, be close to the speakers than they are apart. That does not sound good at all in my room.

I also assume after all the fine tuning, you are not expected to place the LP in the equilateral triangle... The only way to end up there is to guess at the LP to begin with.

Craig
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TV Room Audio - Panasonic TC-P60GT50, McIntosh MX-121, MC7106, Revel F52 & C32, B&W LM1, Sonos Connect\W4S Remedy\iFI 9V Power, WW & Kimber cables, PS Audio Dectet
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  #32  
Old 05-20-2016, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
Dan,

That is confusing since you will not end up in an equilateral triangle and in fact, be close to the speakers than they are apart. That does not sound good at all in my room.

I also assume after all the fine tuning, you are not expected to place the LP in the equilateral triangle... The only way to end up there is to guess at the LP to begin with.

Craig
The process works within the room/speaker interaction. Sometimes the speakers end up further apart. Sometimes they don't. Step 2 insures and Step 3 reconfirms distance apart.
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  #33  
Old 05-20-2016, 01:45 PM
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The process works within the room/speaker interaction. Sometimes the speakers end up further apart. Sometimes they don't. Step 2 insures and Step 3 reconfirms distance apart.
Bill,

I get the speaker / room interaction part. I guess myself and others are wondering about the starting point. If you start with the speakers against or near the wall in an equilateral triangle and you bring them forward as expected, you will have to end up closer to them they are apart. Is that the intended end result?

Craig
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Main room - Sonus Faber Stradivari, JL Audio F113v2 & CR-1 Crossover, McIntosh MC2301 Amplifiers with Stillpoint Ultra SS feet, McIntosh C1100 on Stillpoint Minis, Esoteric K-03X on Stillpoint Minis, Cybershaft Ultimate 2 OP17 on Stillpoint Minis, SilenZio v.2 Audio by -E- Media Server (running ROON), GigaFoil v4, Keces P3 with Ghent PC, 9 M Supra Cat 8+ and 0.65 M Revelation audio ethernet cables.

Other - 2 Stillpoint Apertures, GIK Bass Traps, Vicoustics Waveguide panels, Shunyata Alpha Clock 75 1.5 meter BNC, Shunyata Alpha 1.5 meter USB, WW Gold Eclipse 7 SCs, WW Silver Electra 7 PCs, WW Silver Eclipse ICs; 3 X 20 Amp Power lines, PS Audio P10 & Dectet, 3 Sound Anchor stands, Powerports and numerous Noise Harvesters. Furutech Flex 50, Cable risers, HRS dampeners

TV Room Audio - Panasonic TC-P60GT50, McIntosh MX-121, MC7106, Revel F52 & C32, B&W LM1, Sonos Connect\W4S Remedy\iFI 9V Power, WW & Kimber cables, PS Audio Dectet
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  #34  
Old 05-20-2016, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
Bill,

I get the speaker / room interaction part. I guess myself and others are wondering about the starting point. If you start with the speakers against or near the wall in an equilateral triangle and you bring them forward as expected, you will have to end up closer to them they are apart. Is that the intended end result?

Craig
The result is dependent on the proper mid-bass coupling between the two speakers. Step 1 is simply about the bass as evaluated by the position of the left speaker. Step 2 couples the right speaker to the room and to the left in the bass. Step 3 addresses distance apart and toe in/toe out. That is where distance apart is finalized.

But yes, speakers can end up wider. They can also end up narrower.
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  #35  
Old 05-20-2016, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jfray View Post
I just noticed you are in Houston! Please share where you plan to audition them!

I have no plans to change from the Futrua's but I have wanted to listen to these for a while.........
Josh/Miner, auditioning in Dallas, not Houston.
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  #36  
Old 05-20-2016, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaboudreaux View Post
Josh/Miner, auditioning in Dallas, not Houston.
Ah...... Darn! Please post you thoughts!
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  #37  
Old 05-20-2016, 11:39 PM
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Proof that the sound stage is truly holographic! My dog keeps thinking where are those peoples voices coming from!!!!

HaHa











image-700896574.jpg
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Sonus Faber Amati Futura; C52; REL G1; Silenzio; MT5; MC601 [x2];
MC275 MkV; MEN 220; MCD 1100; Luxman AS-55 Amp Selector;
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Green items were all purchased used thru Audioaficionado's "The Marketplace" from other members

Red item was purchased new from Audioaficionado member

Last edited by jdandy; 05-21-2016 at 12:03 AM. Reason: enlarge photo
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  #38  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:43 AM
delfi87 delfi87 is offline
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The link in the original post is not active. Can someone provide Dan's post that describes the "Master Process" for speaker placement?
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  #39  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:56 PM
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Default Masters Process (Amati Futuras)

This is from an old post by our friend Michael aka Yamaki. I believe it is close but have no idea if it is the real Masters process.

.... The Principle:

Master Set is based on the idea of matching sound pressure between the speakers creating a single sound source. The idea is to “fix” one speaker on one side of the listening room, and then to match the other speaker’s sound pressure to the “fixed” speaker.

The goal is to have each speaker pressurize it’s own half of the room, with no center overlap of sound, cancelling and competing and fuzzing the center image.

The Result

A perfect left-right stereo music image with undistorted sound from each instrument and voice. While this may be the goal of every setup ever devised, Master Set achieves this with great success.

The Needed Tools:

The only items needed to perform Master Set are your ears, a setup recording, and a small level. Master Set can be performed by one or two persons. It’s much easier with two people, but that is not a limiting factor at all.
Master Set is judged only by your own ears, there is no other measuring of any kind.

The speakers need to be moved, often in very small increments. Spikes will need to be removed, or have something under them to allow easy movement. Furniture sliders under the spikes work very well. _Edit_ I didn't remove the spikes. I agree it would have been easier but once I had them set, I didn't want to mess with the placement any further.

The Set Up Recording:

Ballad of a Runaway Horse by Jennifer Warnes and Rob Wasserman. You can find this song on the cd Duets, by Rob Wasserman.

This song works because of its simplicity and the steadiness of the voice line and the bass line. The voice is perfectly centered and solo. The bass is slow, steady, and easy to hear. Since this is the only real cost involved, the cost is minimal.

_Edit_ You can use a different song if you like. What you are looking for here is a track you are familiar with, a reference track so to speak, that you can use for setting the image and detail. I do like that song, however.

Step 1: The beginning set up

Master Set is most successful when the speakers are set against the long wall in the room. However, if the short wall is long enough to allow enough space between the speakers and not be too close to the sidewall, then this can be used. Speakers are set against the rear wall perpendicular to it. Speakers and listener are at points of an equilateral triangle. Spacing is approximate and dependant on room size. Listening position should be at least 2 feet out from a wall behind the listener, and speakers should be as far away from side walls as practical. Listen to the recording and adjust speakers as needed to get a good solid center image of the singer. Adjust by moving speakers together or apart in small increments and listening to changes. This should only take a few minutes unless you have an irregular room, as I do, in which case this can take longer.

Step 2: Setting the first speaker
This step will set one speaker into position and is based on finding the smoothest bass response. Either speaker can be used. With the volume at a decent level, move the speaker out from wall about 6 inches, toeing in directly to listening position. Sound should still be perfectly centered. Continue to move speaker out at 1 inch increments until sound begins to move toward the speaker being moved. Move speaker in progressively smaller increments until sound is totally from the moved speaker. Mark this spot.
Now, search for the best bass by trying to find the bass nodes. Move speaker out in roughly 1/8th inchincrements listening to the bass notes. I find it easiest to use a tape measure here so that the movements are not too much. Slight accentuation of one of the bass notes is a bass node. Rod tells me there are 5 or 6 nodes. You are searching for a setting where the bass notes are somewhat even and don’t go “plonk” or something like that. I find it easiest to hear things in the first 2 verses of the song, and I tend to repeat them over and over as I go.
It may help a lot if you turn the speaker against the wall out 45 degrees towards the sidewall, but still have it playing.
Move the speaker in very small increments and mark settings. Continue to move speaker back and forth until you are comfortable with the sound. Take a long time with this! Once this speaker is set in place it is fixed and there is no more adjustment to it. Time can fly right by - an hour is about right for first time.
If you have a hard time hearing differences, as has often happened to me, well, take a break. And I also find that if differences are hard to find, just guess at what you think is best and go from there.
Set the speaker in place with spikes installed, or whatever is needed for permanent placement. Level the speaker. This speaker will not be moved again.
NOTE: Do not be tempted to turn off the other speaker while doing this. You need both speakers playing in order to properly find the setting where the sound all goes to the moved speaker as this is the point where the sound decouples from the rear wall and the other speaker and is the beginning point for finding the bass setting.
Keep the speaker as level as possible while doing all the moving, etc, and keep the speaker toed in directly at the listener.

Step 3: Setting the other speaker.
This step will move the other speaker into place and be adjusted to match the sound pressure of the already placed speaker. Move the speaker out from the wall to approach the approximate distance as the fixed speaker is out from the wall, toeing speaker directly in to listening position, and keeping speaker level. Mark this spot. Move speaker in slight increments in or out from this setting listening for a centered voice. The sound pressure of the two speakers is equal when the voice is perfectly centered with a tight sound. Listen for slight variations in the voice weighted to one side or the other or a slight pulling apart of the voice. Move in very small increments as often as necessary until you are sure that you have a perfectly centered voice and tight sound. You cannot take too long to do this, and hour can pass by quickly! Take as much time as you need to feel like you have found it!
From a seated centered listening position, the voice centers up quite easily. However, you may not have balanced sound. Try sitting directly on axis with each speaker. When the sound stays stable and centered at all three positions, then you have really close to balanced and equal sound pressure from each speaker into the room.
You can tweak the midrange setting at this point by varying the toe in from direct at listener to being able to see the inside of the speaker cabinet. That’s only about ½ inch of movement, so very small incremental movements are needed. My own experience has been that I have been unable to hear any differences while doing this.
When you are comfortable with the sound, set the speaker permanently in place and level the speaker.

Step 4: Finalizing and Listening
Play some familiar recordings and listen carefully to the left-right stereo image balance. Listen to make sure each side is equal in sound. If one side is slightly louder, move the speaker from Step 3 as follows: in to wall if this side is louder, out from wall if this side is lower in sound. Move in very small increments. Keep at it until everything is just THERE. It's a bit like fine focus on an camera lens.
Listen to music for a few days, or a week, and get familar with the sound. Redo this step as needed until everything is just perfect. You'll know it!
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Main room - Sonus Faber Stradivari, JL Audio F113v2 & CR-1 Crossover, McIntosh MC2301 Amplifiers with Stillpoint Ultra SS feet, McIntosh C1100 on Stillpoint Minis, Esoteric K-03X on Stillpoint Minis, Cybershaft Ultimate 2 OP17 on Stillpoint Minis, SilenZio v.2 Audio by -E- Media Server (running ROON), GigaFoil v4, Keces P3 with Ghent PC, 9 M Supra Cat 8+ and 0.65 M Revelation audio ethernet cables.

Other - 2 Stillpoint Apertures, GIK Bass Traps, Vicoustics Waveguide panels, Shunyata Alpha Clock 75 1.5 meter BNC, Shunyata Alpha 1.5 meter USB, WW Gold Eclipse 7 SCs, WW Silver Electra 7 PCs, WW Silver Eclipse ICs; 3 X 20 Amp Power lines, PS Audio P10 & Dectet, 3 Sound Anchor stands, Powerports and numerous Noise Harvesters. Furutech Flex 50, Cable risers, HRS dampeners

TV Room Audio - Panasonic TC-P60GT50, McIntosh MX-121, MC7106, Revel F52 & C32, B&W LM1, Sonos Connect\W4S Remedy\iFI 9V Power, WW & Kimber cables, PS Audio Dectet

Last edited by crwilli; 06-06-2019 at 09:59 AM.
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