AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > The Lounge > General Audio Discussion

General Audio Discussion All other Audio Q & A

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 04-17-2015, 10:04 AM
House de Kris's Avatar
House de Kris House de Kris is offline
Paper or Plastic?
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Isolated in rural Texas
Posts: 57
Default

Yes, another article that sports the same jist as the one in the OP. But, it did have this interesting paragraph included:

Quote:
To give a proper explanation of the mechanics of just how the relationship between bit depth and noise floor works (and why the term “resolution” is both technically correct and so endlessly misleading for so many people) would be beyond the scope of this article. It requires equations, charts, and quite possibly, more intelligence than I can muster.
It appears that this is another link you've provided that contradicts the link in the OP. Specifically, this thread is based on learnings from The Matrix, and that there is no resolution. This latest link states plainly that resolution is indeed technically correct (and thus implies it exists).

I get that because the concept of resolution is "so endlessly misleading for so many people" that such articles must be written. The first article goes so far as to spread misinformation to make its point. Is this the sort of article we should parade about as being 'good clean thinking'?
__________________
HdK

Water up, fire down
-simple as that
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 04-17-2015, 10:15 AM
o0OBillO0o o0OBillO0o is offline
Rebellious!
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Massachusetts!
Posts: 5,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by House de Kris View Post
It seems to me that you are now changing the intent of the thread from discussing merits of the carrier (an objective discussion) to what sounds best to the listener (a subjective discussion). I believe these to be two independent and unrelated topics. I'm not sure anyone has suggested that what sounds best to someone can be determined by the number of bits or the number of samples per second.

I believe the industry will continue to offer new options as time goes on. Just as I believe the buying public has the right to ignore such options, or to embrace them. No one's got a gun to their head here.
@Kris.. there is always a "So What?" What does this mean to us?-Which is subjective, but worth discussion because both objective and subject are important. The other statement is "Who cares?" -it's not sarcasm it's something to ask every time there is some concept of polarization.

Case in point. Your subjective answer here (below). Side note:So if you're not poking the bear here, then please help this discussion by going back to "objective."

Quote:
Originally Posted by House de Kris View Post
Contrary to your beliefs, I don't feel that noise is part of the art of music. I can listen to live music, and noise of the venue is part of the package, that's a given. But, noise of the venue is not necessarily part of the art. When listening to a symphony and a large truck drives by the hall, I don't consider that part of the art. I consider that an unfortunate accident. Likewise, when that performance is recorded, any additional noise added to the performance is not part of the art. It, again, is an unfortunate accident. Noisey mic preamps, noisey random particles on tape, surface noise in grooves, quantization noise in digitization, noise in amplifiers driving speakers, noise from my neighbor's lawn mower when listening all come after the fact of creating the art and not part of the the art of music at all - in my opinion.

Oh, and all of these noises after the fact reduce the resolution.
That's a great opinion. I am sure if we could control everything there would be no need for discussion anywhere here on the forum.

See Beck's Morning Phase for a album where the artist purposely puts noise in the recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by House de Kris View Post
Yes, another article that sports the same jist as the one in the OP. But, it did have this interesting paragraph included:

It appears that this is another link you've provided that contradicts the link in the OP. Specifically, this thread is based on learnings from The Matrix, and that there is no resolution. This latest link states plainly that resolution is indeed technically correct (and thus implies it exists).

I get that because the concept of resolution is "so endlessly misleading for so many people" that such articles must be written. The first article goes so far as to spread misinformation to make its point. Is this the sort of article we should parade about as being 'good clean thinking'?
This is getting ridiculous. ^^ I am done here.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-17-2015, 11:49 AM
House de Kris's Avatar
House de Kris House de Kris is offline
Paper or Plastic?
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Isolated in rural Texas
Posts: 57
Default

Whoa, hold on. It was not my intent to annoy or piss-off you or anyone. My only issue with the first article of this thread was the author's proclomation that there is no resolution. Further links seem to support the notion that resolution does indeed exist. If my harping on the existance of resolution is what you find ridiculous, then I'm sorry and I should be the one that is done here. Really, didn't mean to annoy you. Please continue.
__________________
HdK

Water up, fire down
-simple as that
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-17-2015, 03:38 PM
Golucid Golucid is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o View Post
I dig the photo. New Avatar? LOL
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-17-2015, 03:42 PM
Golucid Golucid is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Still-One View Post
Everyone has their own perspective and many times it is colored by ones business relationships.

I love the interview of Mark Waldrep, President of AIX Records in the April 13 issue of The Absolute Sound.

"I've been advocating for a clear distinction between standard definition and high-definition audio for years. There continues to be a lot of confusion regarding what is and isn't an HD track. Analog tape is a standard definition format, plain and simple. The same holds for vinyl. Lovers of these formats have every right to enjoy the particular flavor of sound that they produce but that doesn't change the fundamental specifications. They are simply not HD audio any more than 8mm movies from the 1950's are HD video. When an author writes that a particular recording is almost as good as "analog" , it perpetuates the myth that analog is the ultimate goal. It is frustrating that labels, mastering engineers, and consumers are not given the opportunity to hear what artists and engineers/producers create in the studio. .........................Thankfully for audiophiles and music lovers, improvements in recording didn;t end with analog tape and vinyl despite the resurgence of those formats."

Amen
Jim, thanks for posting this. This is an easy read and makes total sense - I didn't have look up words in the dictionary! I'm still learning from all of you, so these posts are of enormous help to a beginner such as myself.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-17-2015, 03:44 PM
Golucid Golucid is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o View Post
...robot band/orchestra/ensemble with real instruments .

Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 10-03-2019, 08:26 PM
Dramatictenor Dramatictenor is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 2
Default

Very interesting discussion of dither. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:01 PM
piolaxo's Avatar
piolaxo piolaxo is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,520
Default

Of course there is resolution. The "noise" that is being referred when using a lower
bit conversion is actually errors, i.e. assigning more sound samples to one byte
(in the case of a ADC). That is why a four bit ADC will be a poor sounding ADC.
When getting back that signal back to analog with a (4-bit) DAC, that byte is fixed
so it will map to one sound and one sound only. You won't find the degree
of variations (a tiny little more amplitude of the same tone for example) and thus
it'll sound like an approximation of the real sound.

The more bits you have the less "errors", again called noise, so you get a greater
ratio between the real signal and the difference between the original and the converted
one, this is the SNR. The bigger the SNR the better. That is why many new digital
recordings are going directly to multi-track DSD -- all channels with the highest
resolution and sampling frequency that exists today.

Why are CDs 16-bits only? Partly because of the technology at the time when
the format started and partly because I don't think it was perceived that more
was needed at the time. There is also the physical media limits. The sampling
frequency was defined by Nyquist, so combining all these was believed to be sufficient.
__________________
Main: Mc C2200 (GLs) and MC207, Yamaha RXV1 and GE-60, Sony ST-SA5ES, TC-KA3ES and MDS-JA50ES, Oppo UDP-205 and BDP-103D, Magnum Dynalab FM Signal Sleuth, Remedy, SMS-1, PS Audio P12, Pioneer DT-555, Samsung 50" Plasma TV
JBL 4311B, M&K MX125II
Office: Sony TA-F700ES, MDS-JA50ES and SEQ-333ES, Bryston BHA-1 and BUC-1, Linn Tukan, PC Server
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:33 PM
clpetersen clpetersen is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Boston
Posts: 402
Default

Below is an excellent example of what dithering can do to reduce quantization noise.
Yes, it is a form of noise, but works extremely well. Even in mechanical systems*.



*Wikipedia - nice example of early dither -
"…[O]ne of the earliest [applications] of dither came in World War II. Airplane bombers used mechanical computers to perform navigation and bomb trajectory calculations. Curiously, these computers (boxes filled with hundreds of gears and cogs) performed more accurately when flying on board the aircraft, and less well on ground. Engineers realized that the vibration from the aircraft reduced the error from sticky moving parts. Instead of moving in short jerks, they moved more continuously. Small vibrating motors were built into the computers, and their vibration was called dither from the Middle English verb "didderen," meaning "to tremble." Today, when you tap a mechanical meter to increase its accuracy, you are applying dither, and modern dictionaries define dither as a highly nervous, confused, or agitated state. In minute quantities, dither successfully makes a digitization system a little more analog in the good sense of the word."

— Ken Pohlmann, Principles of Digital Audio[1]
__________________
Main - JRiver/Synology; Sonos; OPPO HA-1; Bryston B-cubed; Audio Physic Tempo Plus; 'Phones Audeze LCD-3 Office: iMac/JRiver and Spotify; NAD D3020 driving QAcoustics 3020. Media Room:, Samsung Plasma, Sonos, OPPO 205, ATI N-core driving KEF LS-50's with REL subs; Racks by Salamander; Kids - REGA RP1, Sonos Play5; Summer Shack - Sonos, vintage Pioneer, Dynaudio Special 40's.

Last edited by clpetersen; 10-09-2019 at 09:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:03 AM
crwilli's Avatar
crwilli crwilli is online now
Racing Hoopties


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bluffton SC
Posts: 7,868
Default

Good post
__________________
Main room - Sonus Faber Stradivari, JL Audio F113v2 & CR-1 Crossover, McIntosh MC2301 Amplifiers with Stillpoint Ultra SS feet, McIntosh C1100 on Stillpoint Minis, Esoteric K-03X on Stillpoint Minis, Cybershaft Ultimate 2 OP17 on Stillpoint Minis, SilenZio v.2 Audio by -E- Media Server (running ROON), GigaFoil v4, Keces P3 with Ghent PC, 9 M Supra Cat 8+ and 0.65 M Revelation audio ethernet cables.

Other - 2 Stillpoint Apertures, GIK Bass Traps, Vicoustics Waveguide panels, Shunyata Alpha Clock 75 1.5 meter BNC, Shunyata Alpha 1.5 meter USB, WW Gold Eclipse 7 SCs, WW Silver Electra 7 PCs, WW Silver Eclipse ICs; 3 X 20 Amp Power lines, PS Audio P10 & Dectet, 3 Sound Anchor stands, Powerports and numerous Noise Harvesters. Furutech Flex 50, Cable risers, HRS dampeners

TV Room Audio - Panasonic TC-P60GT50, McIntosh MX-121, MC7106, Revel F52 & C32, B&W LM1, Sonos Connect\W4S Remedy\iFI 9V Power, WW & Kimber cables, PS Audio Dectet
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:54 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2019 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Acoustic Sciences Corportation
Acoustic Sciences Corportation
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Accuphase
Accuphase