Tried reverse polarity on my sasha 2

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Supermerio

Thanks bill.

The first thing i notice with reverse polarity with sasha to is the loss
Of its time coherence which we all value so much, compared to other
Speakers; it still sounded very good regardless of polarity.

I am also baffled; compared to my last speakers (vivid giya g3 ) coherence
Is on par with reversed polarity wilson, whereas others tend to sound
Weird and downright unpleasant; my sasha 2 still sounds fantastic.

If i read you correctly; you think i’m enjoying this present set up
Because i may need to properly position my speakers to the last
Minute? Although my room right now wont allow that; it sound damn
Good to my ears. whereas my vivig gave me all sort of trouble in my
Small room, my sasha is a piece of cake.

Hi Elmer,

Sorry for the slow reply. I was in Florida for my daughter's wedding from the middle of last week until yesterday.

I'll try to address point by point. But first things first, I'm very happy to hear that you are enjoying your Sashas. Thanks you for being a Wilson owner.

Time syncronicity is the raison d'etre for Wilson loudspeakers. It is what Dave spent his entire career pursuing. That it wasn't until the late 90's/early 00's that peer reviewed studies actually documented what Dave heard from the beginning. Hearing it and trying to figure out how to create syncronicity at the level the studies proved existed (time differences in microseconds, not milliseconds) were two different things. The Nomographs and set up procedures are the beginning of getting that syncronicity right in practice.

Giving up a little bit of syncronicity is a slippery slope. Proper alignment affects every thing, not just pace and rhythm.

Comparing two different designs when both are improperly wired really tells you nothing of value. Neither one is operating properly. Results don't matter. Both are incorrect - and sound like it.

You misunderstood my comment about set up. There are almost always set up limitations (ranges within which to work). But within any range, there will be places that are better than others. When boundaries are close, listening position is close, very precise positioning yields great improvement. This includes level and rake as well as revisiting the Nomograph settings for your final positioning. FYI, it is impossible to extract expected performance from any Wilson product still mounted of their transport casters.

It is possible to have chosen a spot where the bass is not as linear as it should be. If you then reverse the mids, the resulting acoustical phase change at the listening position will tend to sound like it has tightened the mid bass, among other things. Actually what has happened is that you now have a suck out instead of the normal transition. If the speaker were properly set up in the room, the reversal would have resulted in being much worse.

As for precision of set up, don't ever let anyone tell you that you do not have room for that. While it may not be the perfect place in the perfect room, there is always room for precision. We are talking last moves down to small fractions of an inch. The advantage of doing this before treatment is it allows you to make judicious treatment choices without trying to recreate a room within a room.

If you do not know the owner/amp history of your speakers or you did not buy them from an authorized Wilson dealer in North America, there may be one more thing that may give you another bump in performance. Replacing the old mid and tweeter resistors with the same resistors from Wilson is simple to do. FYI, it is not necessary for a pair of Certified AuthenticTM speakers purchased from a Wilson Dealer as new resistors are a part of the authentication process.

Lastly, when and if you get all of this done, start listening to absolute polarity on every recording you play. There will be definite differences and in most instances, you will easily prefer one over the other.

Again, sorry for the delay in responding. Happy to help when I can.

Bill

[marsalis]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Hi Elmer,

Sorry for the slow reply. I was in Florida for my daughter's wedding from the middle of last week until yesterday.

I'll try to address point by point. But first things first, I'm very happy to hear that you are enjoying your Sashas. Thanks you for being a Wilson owner.

Time syncronicity is the raison d'etre for Wilson loudspeakers. It is what Dave spent his entire career pursuing. That it wasn't until the late 90's/early 00's that peer reviewed studies actually documented what Dave heard from the beginning. Hearing it and trying to figure out how to create syncronicity at the level the studies proved existed (time differences in microseconds, not milliseconds) were two different things. The Nomographs and set up procedures are the beginning of getting that syncronicity right in practice.

Giving up a little bit of syncronicity is a slippery slope. Proper alignment affects every thing, not just pace and rhythm.

Comparing two different designs when both are improperly wired really tells you nothing of value. Neither one is operating properly. Results don't matter. Both are incorrect - and sound like it.

You misunderstood my comment about set up. There are almost always set up limitations (ranges within which to work). But within any range, there will be places that are better than others. When boundaries are close, listening position is close, very precise positioning yields great improvement. This includes level and rake as well as revisiting the Nomograph settings for your final positioning. FYI, it is impossible to extract expected performance from any Wilson product still mounted of their transport casters.

It is possible to have chosen a spot where the bass is not as linear as it should be. If you then reverse the mids, the resulting acoustical phase change at the listening position will tend to sound like it has tightened the mid bass, among other things. Actually what has happened is that you now have a suck out instead of the normal transition. If the speaker were properly set up in the room, the reversal would have resulted in being much worse.

As for precision of set up, don't ever let anyone tell you that you do not have room for that. While it may not be the perfect place in the perfect room, there is always room for precision. We are talking last moves down to small fractions of an inch. The advantage of doing this before treatment is it allows you to make judicious treatment choices without trying to recreate a room within a room.

If you do not know the owner/amp history of your speakers or you did not buy them from an authorized Wilson dealer in North America, there may be one more thing that may give you another bump in performance. Replacing the old mid and tweeter resistors with the same resistors from Wilson is simple to do. FYI, it is not necessary for a pair of Certified AuthenticTM speakers purchased from a Wilson Dealer as new resistors are a part of the authentication process.

Lastly, when and if you get all of this done, start listening to absolute polarity on every recording you play. There will be definite differences and in most instances, you will easily prefer one over the other.

Again, sorry for the delay in responding. Happy to help when I can.

Bill

Interesting, “Time syncronicity”; is that different than time coherence? Can you please explain what it is and point to the “peer reviewed studies” you are referring to?

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by marsalis

Interesting, “Time syncronicity”; is that different than time coherence? Can you please explain what it is and point to the “peer reviewed studies” you are referring to?

Typically time coherence is used to describe launch only.

Time syncronicity requires the ability to adjust for synchronous arrival at the listening position. It includes maintaining the timing of the signal from input through crossover through drivers to the listener's ear. It takes into account the listening distance and height. As those parameters change so does the adjustment of the speaker.

The medical studies to which I referred were done to determine the ability of humans to hear time intervals in a controlled test. In one of the studies, over 50% of the participants were able to reliably hear intervals below 10 microseconds.

[Supermerio]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Hi Elmer,

Sorry for the slow reply. I was in Florida for my daughter's wedding from the middle of last week until yesterday.

I'll try to address point by point. But first things first, I'm very happy to hear that you are enjoying your Sashas. Thanks you for being a Wilson owner.

Time syncronicity is the raison d'etre for Wilson loudspeakers. It is what Dave spent his entire career pursuing. That it wasn't until the late 90's/early 00's that peer reviewed studies actually documented what Dave heard from the beginning. Hearing it and trying to figure out how to create syncronicity at the level the studies proved existed (time differences in microseconds, not milliseconds) were two different things. The Nomographs and set up procedures are the beginning of getting that syncronicity right in practice.

Giving up a little bit of syncronicity is a slippery slope. Proper alignment affects every thing, not just pace and rhythm.

Comparing two different designs when both are improperly wired really tells you nothing of value. Neither one is operating properly. Results don't matter. Both are incorrect - and sound like it.

You misunderstood my comment about set up. There are almost always set up limitations (ranges within which to work). But within any range, there will be places that are better than others. When boundaries are close, listening position is close, very precise positioning yields great improvement. This includes level and rake as well as revisiting the Nomograph settings for your final positioning. FYI, it is impossible to extract expected performance from any Wilson product still mounted of their transport casters.

It is possible to have chosen a spot where the bass is not as linear as it should be. If you then reverse the mids, the resulting acoustical phase change at the listening position will tend to sound like it has tightened the mid bass, among other things. Actually what has happened is that you now have a suck out instead of the normal transition. If the speaker were properly set up in the room, the reversal would have resulted in being much worse.

As for precision of set up, don't ever let anyone tell you that you do not have room for that. While it may not be the perfect place in the perfect room, there is always room for precision. We are talking last moves down to small fractions of an inch. The advantage of doing this before treatment is it allows you to make judicious treatment choices without trying to recreate a room within a room.

If you do not know the owner/amp history of your speakers or you did not buy them from an authorized Wilson dealer in North America, there may be one more thing that may give you another bump in performance. Replacing the old mid and tweeter resistors with the same resistors from Wilson is simple to do. FYI, it is not necessary for a pair of Certified AuthenticTM speakers purchased from a Wilson Dealer as new resistors are a part of the authentication process.

Lastly, when and if you get all of this done, start listening to absolute polarity on every recording you play. There will be definite differences and in most instances, you will easily prefer one over the other.

Again, sorry for the delay in responding. Happy to help when I can.

Bill

Thank you bill for your very informative post.

I have another question:

Wilson speakers are so time and phase coherent to the point that my
Wife thinks its a kind of coloration just to please ones brain. She said
Music (live) should not sound “perfectly aligned”-her words, she is
Obviously referring to phase and time coherence of the sasha 2.
Me on the other hand finds this pleasing and enjoyable.

My question is: is this type of presentation a coloration?


Elmer

[SL1800]

Great thread going here. Can’t wait for Bill’s answer to ^ this question.

[marsalis]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Typically time coherence is used to describe launch only.

Time syncronicity requires the ability to adjust for synchronous arrival at the listening position. It includes maintaining the timing of the signal from input through crossover through drivers to the listener's ear. It takes into account the listening distance and height. As those parameters change so does the adjustment of the speaker.

The medical studies to which I referred were done to determine the ability of humans to hear time intervals in a controlled test. In one of the studies, over 50% of the participants were able to reliably hear intervals below 10 microseconds.

So does that mean that “Time syncronicity” is "time coherence" at the listening position?

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Supermerio

Thank you bill for your very informative post.

I have another question:

Wilson speakers are so time and phase coherent to the point that my
Wife thinks its a kind of coloration just to please ones brain. She said
Music (live) should not sound “perfectly aligned”-her words, she is
Obviously referring to phase and time coherence of the sasha 2.
Me on the other hand finds this pleasing and enjoyable.

My question is: is this type of presentation a coloration?


Elmer

Contrary to what your wife is saying, live unamplified music (time relationships of sounds of a group of instruments/voices) at a given instant is always perfectly aligned in time regardless of how it sounds. That is, those sounds all have a very specific time relationship to one another when they reach the listener.

Wilson's time syncronicity is trying to replicate the time signature(relationships) of the signal captured by the recording microphone(s). Think of the mic as the listener. No more. No less.

Coloration? Hardly. Just the opposite.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by marsalis

So does that mean that “Time syncronicity” is "time coherence" at the listening position?

I don't want to go there. Audiophiles often use time coherence and phase coherence interchangably. Certainly related, they are not the same. One only need invert polarity on a signal to see a simple example of this. Though the phase has changed 180 degrees, the time is precisely the same.

Dave chose the term syncronicity to avoid the confusion that often comes with how the term coherence is used in the lay audio community.

[marsalis]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

I don't want to go there. Audiophiles often use time coherence and phase coherence interchangably. Certainly related, they are not the same. One only need invert polarity on a signal to see a simple example of this. Though the phase has changed 180 degrees, the time is precisely the same.

Dave chose the term syncronicity to avoid the confusion that often comes with how the term coherence is used in the lay audio community.

But I did not ask about phase coherency (obviously Wilson speakers are not phase coherent if the midranges are out-of-phase, etc). I am trying to understand what is Time syncronicity, and if it means time coherence at the listening position.

[marsalis]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

I don't want to go there...

From your reluctance to answer, I gather that Time syncronicity does not equal Time coherence at the listening position.
So, can anyone explain the actual effect of Time syncronicity? I gather you can align/move drivers, but if time coherency can’t be achieved, (i.e., you can’t align all frq at the listening position), what is the purpose of doing this?