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  #31  
Old 01-23-2016, 08:10 PM
meltemi meltemi is offline
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Originally Posted by Mattia View Post
What is also interesting, is that on the used market a DC-300 is valued 1/3 or max 1/2 the price of a C-290V, even if his price in Japan, at the time, was exactly the same (980'000¥).

This fact alone maybe can partially answer my original question on the first post: the "DC-3xx" line of preamplifiers was probably never updated (also) for lack of clients interest and then sales.

The subsequent 2xxx line, with AAVA, seems in fact to try very hard to push the fact that the AAVA is analogue. It is repeated a thousand times everywhere in the promotional material. Evidently, many Accuphase customers perceived the digital volume of the DC-3xx as something obviously and surely inferior to Good Old Analogue (maybe, as often is sadly the case, without having the possibility to properly test out and compare).
In a review of the C-290V in (german) Audio 5/1999, Accuphase allegedly said, that the C-290V would be the last of it's kind and the future would be digital (i.e. DC-300, DC-330).
One of the reasons for this might have been the fact, that Panasonic was no longer producing the 4x pots Accuphase was using in their top analog pres since the C-280V (December 1990).

Since a pre is essentially a volume control, the methods implemented have a great impact on overall quality:

1) When using pots (or an array of fixed resistors) you change the input and output impedance of the circuits. This has a negative effect on several parameters as distortion, phase and s/n figures. When setting low levels, you lose musical detail.

2) Digital volume controls reduce the number of bits available at the output. Attenuating 24dB on a 16bit system reduces the number of available bits to 12. On a 24bit system you still reduce the number of available bits to 20.
The latter may be more acceptable than the former, but it is still likely to somewhat deteriorate the music signal.
In addition, using a digital volume control in an otherwise analog pre necessitates the use of ADC/DAC conversion, which does not go without some losses either.

3) AAVA is an analog solution, but does not have any of the negative effects of 1) or 2) above. However this method requires considerable effort and know-how and is a pretty costly solution.

Accuphase introduced the C-2800 with the first generation of AAVA in July 2002. The current generation of AAVA is the third for C-2xxx and the fourth for C-3850.

Martin
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  #32  
Old 01-24-2016, 09:36 AM
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Mattia Mattia is offline
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Martin (Barsur)
thank you for your clarification. Wonderful system indeed by the way


Martin (meltemi)
thank you as usual for the explanation, with some extra "period" information!

Regarding point 2, the fact that for DC-300/330 Accuphase allegedly uses 48-bit with noise shaping (for volume, tone, balance, etc) does not mean that only at insanely high attenuations you have loss of signal resolution for original 16/44 material?


AAVA is obviously the best solution: safe from cost, space and complication, it has no drawbacks.
I wonder if the "digital preamplifier solution" was a stop gap or possibly a "Plan B" to have a viable exit path form the Panasonic pot, if the "AAVA" project was not feasible.
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Last edited by Mattia; 01-25-2016 at 11:15 AM.
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  #33  
Old 03-11-2018, 10:04 AM
LeoCasa LeoCasa is offline
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Hello all,

I’d appreciate some advice on DC-330.

My current set-up is DP500, DG48, E350, with a single digital source (Sonos). My speakers are Sonus Faber, Cremona M.

I am thinking of upgrading to A70, and use my DP500 as a preamp. But my local Accuphase dealer (I live in Paris) says he has a «*great opportunity for me*» (that always makes me a little bit suspicious given I feel there is a inbalance in technical knowledge between us, so I am not able to judge whether what he is telling me is 100% correct).

His proposal is for me to acquire a second hand DC-330, which he says will be much better as a preamp than using my DP500, especially when I acquire a second hand A-70, and since I got rid of all my CDs, I don’t need the DP500 and could sell it.
Apparently I could hope to sell the DP500 for 2,500€ and the price he is offering for the DC-330 is 3,800€. So the net cost would be rather limited, and he says I will have an immediate and material upgrade between the preamp function of the DP500 and the DC-330.

What do you guys think about this?

Thanks for any advice,

Olivier
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2018, 10:13 AM
LeoCasa LeoCasa is offline
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Sorry I meant using the E350 as a preamp of course, not the DP500. So in the initial stage my set up would be DC-330, DG-48 and E350 (that I would use as a power amp). And when I upgrade to A70, I would resell the E350. And be left with DC-330, DG-48 and A-70. I hope that is clearer.
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  #35  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:30 AM
meltemi meltemi is offline
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IMHO you should do a comparative listening with A-70 as power amp and DC-330 against one of the current analog preamps (C-3850 would be the ideal match to A-70).

The DC-330 came to market in November 1999 (18 years ago) and since then, there was a lot of progress in both the digital and the analog domain.

In addition, the input configuration of the DC-330 is almost fully dependent on the option boards mounted. Only one Cinch line input and one digital input/output were standard.
No HS-Link and no USB available.

Personally, I would think of replacing the E-350 with a current integrated amp like the E-650 (instead of a combo with the A-70) and the DP-500 with a DAC-50 board for the E-650 or a DC-37.
A very cost effective solution with fully balanced AAVA (like C-3850) and fully sufficient power to drive normally sensitive speakers in a home environment.
If you really want to go for a combo, the preamp will finally decide, what you will get out of the A-70. And the overall investment will rise considerably.

Martin

Last edited by meltemi; 03-12-2018 at 09:36 AM.
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  #36  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:47 PM
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hs-link is available plus full sacd-compbility at dc 330 -even a phono-option board is available but it´s right: no usb ......
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  #37  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:55 PM
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http://www.accuphase.com/cat/dc330_e.pdf plus later on DO2-HS1 2000.12, DI2-HS1 2000.07 - so you can directly connect a dp-100, dp-800 etc.
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  #38  
Old 03-14-2018, 02:13 AM
LeoCasa LeoCasa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltemi View Post
IMHO you should do a comparative listening with A-70 as power amp and DC-330 against one of the current analog preamps (C-3850 would be the ideal match to A-70).



The DC-330 came to market in November 1999 (18 years ago) and since then, there was a lot of progress in both the digital and the analog domain.



In addition, the input configuration of the DC-330 is almost fully dependent on the option boards mounted. Only one Cinch line input and one digital input/output were standard.

No HS-Link and no USB available.



Personally, I would think of replacing the E-350 with a current integrated amp like the E-650 (instead of a combo with the A-70) and the DP-500 with a DAC-50 board for the E-650 or a DC-37.

A very cost effective solution with fully balanced AAVA (like C-3850) and fully sufficient power to drive normally sensitive speakers in a home environment.

If you really want to go for a combo, the preamp will finally decide, what you will get out of the A-70. And the overall investment will rise considerably.



Martin


Thanks Meltemi, that’s really useful. I can see that buying a product that’s 18 years old is not really such a great idea, when there are other, and cheaper, options available. I will folllow your advice and sell both the DP-500 and E-350 and upgrade for the E-650 with a DAC-50 board !
Olivier
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  #39  
Old 03-14-2018, 07:44 AM
jororupp jororupp is offline
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I will folllow your advice and sell both the DP-500 and E-350 and upgrade for the E-650 with a DAC-50 board !
Good decision. I'm sure you'll love it.
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  #40  
Old 03-22-2018, 11:18 AM
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Mattia Mattia is offline
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The E-650 surely is a super fine and trouble free solution! Congrats.


I would not, however, so easily dismiss older gear sound just because "is older", "they improved", etc.
Yes, they improved, but sometimes they went from "perfect" to "more perfect". In other words, honestly, it is *really* difficult if not impossible to tell them apart.

Granted, there are people who evidently can ear 0.5uV noise differences and tell that they are "big".
I think otherwise.


If it is in proper shape (and that is THE big if, you never know how it was used!), a good older unit may perform surprisingly well.

Barsur, here in the thread, did a comparison between some different eras Accuphase preamplifier and they were indistinguishable between each other.

I recently did the same with my (recently restored) C-280V (1990), C-290V (1998) and C-2420 (2012) and found the same as Barsur: basically they are all just perfect to me. And the C-280V (with restoration) and C-290V, together, cost to me way less than C-2420.
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Last edited by Mattia; 03-22-2018 at 11:37 AM.
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