When’s the D4 coming?

[ti33er]

Thanks Doug - frustratingly I don’t get that option…I’m assuming it’s to do with my membership status? I’ll see if I can PM something to you…

Edit - I can’t even send Messages …says 1/0 allowed, with the welcome note …I’ve been on here nearing a year AFAIK

[dkorbal]

Yea. I think you need to be a subscriber.

[Delija]

Use https://postimages.org/ and insert link here.

[Masterlu]

Originally Posted by ti33er

Thanks Doug - frustratingly I don’t get that option…I’m assuming it’s to do with my membership status? I’ll see if I can PM something to you…

Edit - I can’t even send Messages …says 1/0 allowed, with the welcome note …I’ve been on here nearing a year AFAIK

Those are all benefits of become a Subscriber.

[ti33er]

Thanks. I’d consider Subscribing if I start using this Forum more frequently in the near future … let’s see if this works

Image showing D3 anechoic response, measured in a controlled room with sophisticated equipment

https://postimg.cc/Mf8tLhWT

You can see the blue trace is the D3 Tweeter response which is far from linear; even without a crossover (direct) it’s very similar …overall the red trace shows how the 10Khz band is elevated; which is definitely audible even off axis

Ps. Feel free to paste that image to be static, as I’m currently unable to

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by ti33er

You can see the blue trace is the D3 Tweeter response which is far from linear; even without a crossover (direct) it’s very similar …overall the red trace shows how the 10Khz band is elevated; which is definitely audible even off axis

Ps. Feel free to paste that image to be static, as I’m currently unable to

Direct is still via the crossover, which is first order, 6dB / octave, so that's what I would expect to see. The broad peak around 10kHz on axis has less to do with the tweeter itself than it does the first order filter and higher sensitivity with respect to the woofer. I've actually measured the response of a D2 series tweeter directly (in the true sense) and found it to be 'linear', particularly at about 20 degrees off axis, where the dome geometry doesn't create the interference dip at 20kHz to the same extent. I've mentioned previously on this forum and others that the apparent dip on axis around 6kHz on the 3-way models is purely a construct of the crossover design, and specifically the decision made by B&W engineers (and explained in their white paper) to move the tweeter forward by a half wavelength rather than invert the polarity. This creates a slight dip on axis at approx 6kHz and therefore also creates a broad peak (on axis) around 10kHz, which all but disappears at about 20 degrees off axis, but is really only measurable in the near field anyway.

Aside from the D3 model where the tweeter output is elevated due to higher sensitivity the only real negative of the B&W design approach is that they've made a speaker that doesn't measure as 'flat' on axis as that of their competitors. For many people who deem that to be the primary metric for fidelity or accuracy it leads to the false belief that the speaker is flawed.

[PeterMusic]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

Aside from the D3 model where the tweeter output is elevated due to higher sensitivity the only real negative of the B&W design approach is that they've made a speaker that doesn't measure as 'flat' on axis as that of their competitors. For many people who deem that to be the primary metric for fidelity or accuracy it leads to the false belief that the speaker is flawed.

Agreed. Every speaker has strengths and weaknesses, but it seems there is a fundamental flaw in an argument based on a civilian improving on B&W's work. Do you really think your buddy is better than the entire team at B&W who've been working on this for decades with massive resources supporting them? Maybe after they tackle your speakers, they'll fix the sloppy engine in your BMW or Mercedes?

[ti33er]

thanks for that …the tweeter was also measured circumventing the crossover; direct connection - both Drivers were measured raw to see if I could get a completely new Crossover made up. I don’t have these graphs to show you unfortunately as they were not saved (I did enquire if I could have them recently); but shown to me when I went round so I could see at the time

I’m not an electronics expert but this person is (seasoned veteran in his 70’s with no axe to grind; neither is he a greasy palmed Audio Reviewer) and we both agreed with the results audibly

The existing original Crossover in the 805D3 is near optimal already so he wasnt going to waste my money …except for the tweeter hump that I don’t like and can clearly hear as being sharp or shrill …common sense does tell me the D3 tweeter is not a miracle of science though …your D2 tweeter I am certain is better and measured well (wish I’d bought used 802D2 in hindsight as would have cost the same)!

So back to my original statement…I may upgrade to D4 if they have improved or made a more linear tweeter

[ti33er]

@petermusic funny you say that; and I think being an Audio Nerd attracts a certain calibre of personality I’ve noticed; he rebuilt an e-type Jaguar engine in his youth when I mentioned another person I know occasionally saws older BMW 325i in half to go racing on the Nurburgring regularly

To get the best out of these 805D3 you have to buy something like McIntosh to dither the tweeter out

[ti33er]

…look I know it’s not nice to hear that equipment we’ve invested thousands in could be sub-optimal - I am one of them and was upset seeing the measurements thinking the D3 tweeter was one of worlds finest - it took me some time to save up and buy these things; having fights with my Wife, as family puts a cork in AV expenditure; especially when ‘holidays’ are considered by the latter far more important

So I spent my own money to investigate why I’ve been unhappy with these 805D3 because I was told by Bowers Support that they sound as good as they can and to simply visit my Dealer to buy something else …which led me to go seeking answers elsewhere