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#91
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Excellent and to the point. There is an inherent objectivist assumption that what you can’t measure doesn’t exist or isn’t important, and therefor positive results from what you can measure indicates success.
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Tony D'Agostino Momentum S250 MxV & HD pre; Linn Klimax Organik DSM, SonicTransporter, EtherRegen; Acoustic Signature Typhoon Neo, Koetsu RSP, Boulder 1108; Sf Il Cremonese; Shunyata Everest, Altaira, Sigma & Alpha v2 |
#92
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This is most famous in the placebo effect in medicine - measurable and durable effects have been documented in peer-reviewed journals such as Science and Nature.
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Main - Roon on Synology/Sonos Port/SoTM Neo endpoints; Chord Qutest, Bryston BP-17 cubed with phono option; EAT C-sharp with Ortofon Bronze MM, Bryston cubed Amplifier; Revel F126Be on custom Atocha stands; interconnects by WireWorld, furniture by Atocha Design 'Phones Audeze LCD-3, Bryston BHA-1; Office: Sonos/Roon; OPPO HA-1, Naim NAP100 and PSB Mini-C. Media Room:, Samsung QLED QN90 series, Sonos, OPPO 205, ATI N-core driving KEF LS-50's with REL subs; furniture by Glassisimo; Kids - U-turn for vinyl, Sonos Play5; Summer Shack - Sonos, vintage Pioneer, Dynaudio Special 40's. Last edited by clpetersen; 07-15-2019 at 04:54 PM. |
#93
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I just saw the video and read the thread.
In a past life I had a bunch of personal experience with both null testing and Double Blind A/B/X testing. If you listened to FM radio in the 80’s through 00’s you’ve heard my designs. Here are the fallacies with Mr. Weiner’s approach: 1. He had to fiddle with the cable to eliminate interference from his computer that appears to be several feet away. Did one cable perform better in this regard? We‘ll never know. Is that kind of interference audible? At what level? 2. He states subjectively that ‘a null that is 80 dB down is not audible”. It is a statement of fact. Really? Show me the peer-reviewed tests that prove this to be the case. Note: if you find one l’ll probably be able to pull it apart. 3. He is measuring the difference between two cables. That’s uninteresting. What I really want to know is what is the difference between the signal at the input of the cable to the signal at the output? That takes into account the whole chain, from the signal source to the load. It shows what the cable is doing to the signal passing through it. 4. His null setup is not noise optimized. 5. He didn’t do an FFT of the null residual which would have allowed him to average out the noise and see a much more in depth and detailed view of what to him just looked like broadband noise in his test setup. I haven’t yet looked at Paul’s response. As far as the violin test, I have personally experienced a similar situation with classical guitars played live on stage. If anyone is interested I’ll post about it. Tom
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Main System: Amati Futura Mains Amati Homage VOX Center, Proac Response 1sc Rears, Three MC2301's for L,C,R MC 602 for the rears C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80 Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material. Lake House: Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3 OnDeck: McIntosh MAC 4300v |
#94
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And thank you for the informative reply. |
#95
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Have we all been duped??
I was part of a demonstration at an Audio Engineering Society meeting where two acoustic guitars were played by the same musician behind an acoustically transparent screen used to hide the visual cues.
One guitar was a Yamaha $200 starter guitar and the other a Hermann Hauser SR 1937 owned by Andres Segovia. I’m not a guitar aficionado but this particular guitar is very highly regarded. The same piece was played on each guitar for a few minutes. The audience was encouraged to clap between performances. A show of hands was used to indicate audience preference. In this case the majority of audience members preferred the second guitar. It was the $200 Yamaha. The test was repeated multiple times during the conference with different audiences each time. The second guitar always won. Didn’t matter if it was the Herrmann Hauser or the Yamaha. The demonstrators explained the the loud white noise from clapping between selections changed the audience’s perceptual bias in a positive way that caused them to favor the second guitar. Fascinating. Tom
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Main System: Amati Futura Mains Amati Homage VOX Center, Proac Response 1sc Rears, Three MC2301's for L,C,R MC 602 for the rears C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80 Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material. Lake House: Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3 OnDeck: McIntosh MAC 4300v |
#96
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#97
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Interesting observations. So from your perspective the test was run incorrectly. If you were to do the test with the adjustments that you are suggesting, what do you anticipate that the results will be? |
#98
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You know, I really have no idea what to expect.
A lower noise setup and running an FFT on the null output may uncover some quantitative differences in the cables. If and only if there was a measurable difference, you could start measuring other cables and then see if the measurements somehow correlated with the perceived sound quality differences between the cables. This is all rampant speculation on my part. Tom
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Main System: Amati Futura Mains Amati Homage VOX Center, Proac Response 1sc Rears, Three MC2301's for L,C,R MC 602 for the rears C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80 Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material. Lake House: Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3 OnDeck: McIntosh MAC 4300v |
#99
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#100
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The Transparent Plus is $465, the Hero $308 (current prices); this is for 1.5 meter pairs, used on my SACD player. Based on the result with that component, I put Plus on all sources except my tuner and turntable; the tuner still has Hero ICs, and the turntable uses the cables that came with the tonearm.
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SOTA, Grado, SME, Van den Hul, Gingko turntable setup; Pioneer Elite LD, BDP; Sony OLED TV; Magnum Dynalab tuner, antenna; MIT S-video cable; Pangea HDMI cables; DVDO video processor; McIntosh SACD, preamp, power amps; Telefunken Black Diamond preamp tubes; Kimber IC; Transparent IC, PC, SC; Mirage speakers; PS Audio, Shunyata PC; Audio Additives RCA caps; Furman power conditioning; Sanus: racks |
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