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Old 01-03-2012, 10:54 AM
FranklinLG FranklinLG is offline
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Question A complimentary Shindo amp query

Hey there one and all! Happy New Year to each of you!

As I set out into the New Year, I am seriously considering some modifications to my system arrangement. To begin with, I am looking to jump into a Shindo Pre-amp – either the Masseto or Vosne Romanee. In light of this, I am also contemplating a Shindo amp, hence my query here.


So I am seeking input on Shindo amp flavors…. FWIW, I have a terrific Shindo dealer that I work with, and with whom I will discuss this further as the year proceeds. But for now, I wanted to simply ask some people here for some input.

In terms of my current set-up, I have Sophia Electric 300B amp (NOS - 5U4G & 6SN& + SE300B), which I’m happy with. I also have relatively efficient speakers in the DeVore Orangutans O96s. And I am not complaining about the power driving them with the 300B. I just want to open my ears to what else is out there… And what I might try to look at to compliment my system and the SE 300B, which I will likely keep for the foreseeable future - unless I can track down a nice Shindo 300B or a Wavac 300B within my price point...!

Please fire away with any input you might have!

Thanks,
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  #2  
Old 01-04-2012, 05:56 PM
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Old Grey Old Grey is offline
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Sounds like you're off to a great start in 2012!

As for a preamp, one thing to keep in mind is since Shindo dealers typically offer very generous trade-ins as you move up the line, it's a lot less painful to upgrade. No need to leap to the VR right away and you can enjoy each step along the way (just a thought).

As for amps, I find Shindo-sans naming amps after wines to be very appropriate. Personal taste is a huge part of it, but I also think that what you pair them with (continuing the metaphor if music was food) has a lot to do with how to enjoy them at their best. I'm sure some will disagree, but FWIW, here are my thoughts to get the discussion going:

F2a amps (Cortese & Sinhonias)
Slightly more romantic (yet refined) sound with a rich, wonderful tone. Smooooth. Excels with acoustic jazz/chamber music. I fell in love with the F2a sound years ago and now I own the Sinhonias paired with Silverbacks. I find Alberto's reviews of the Cortese right on the money.

GM70:
Cleaner/less romantic sound than the F2a but feels more dynamic, powerful, & precise. Would excels with orchestral or vocals (or anything for that matter if you prefer a cleaner sound). Not inexpensive and require more space than most other Shindo amps.

Haut Brion
Often described as "visceral" sounding, and I agree. Seems to be a popular with O/96 owners (which I also think is a terrific speaker especially for rock). Excels with rock/alternative.

Montrachet
I heard this amp way too long ago to fully comment. I'd be curious how others find this in comparison to the HB or CC.

300B
I was told this was one of the amps used to voice the O/96's -so I would imagine it would be a phenomenal pairing. I'd be very curious how this compares to your Sophia, but I haven't had the pleasure of hearing either yet.

Corton Charlemagnes
A buddy of mine pairs his CC's with O/96's and he's quite happy so far...another I haven't had the pleasure.

Also, if you haven't done so already, here's an interesting article you may find worth reading:
Innerworld Audio - "Honeyed, Luxe and Aristocratic"

Good luck & I look forward to comments from others.
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  #3  
Old 01-04-2012, 06:59 PM
sibelius sibelius is offline
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I have auditioned the following Shindo amps:

Cortese
GM70
Montrachet
Montille

The following is my subjective impression. Others may have very different opinions:

The Cortese (F2a) is a dynamic 10W SET that has a suprisingly good bottom end, very good presence, and a subjective feeling that it is more powerful than its stated rating. It's sound is very coherent and solid from top to bottom. What you may miss in comparison to your 300B is that sensuous midrange.

The GM70 (20W SET) is in a lot of ways very similar to the F2a except you get more power. The bass is excellent for a SET, the soundstage is large and the presence is absolutely amazing. If a 300B puts you in row 10 of a concert hall, the F2a puts you in the front row and the GM70 has you on stage. Everything is big and bold. Again, what you may find missing compared to a 300B is that rich midrange and some nuance and subtlety.

The Montrachet is a lush, full bodied EL-34 push pull. It was the most romantic and sweet sounding of all the Shindo amps's I've heard. The Montrachet does a nice job capturing the ebb and flow of the music. What it lacks in comparison to the SET's are their level of transparency and detail.

The Montille is a little 15W push pull that is very nice in the rhythm and pace department. I have one (the earlier El-84 version) and like to pair it up with jazz recordings. Sound is much more neutral than the Montrachet.

All the Shindo amps I auditoned were extremely well built with designs faithful to the essence of the output tube. Listen to the amps and choose based on speaker fit and individual sound preference.

I am a bit different than most in that while I have one preamp (Shindo VR), I own many amps and tend to rotate them fairly frequently based on the musical genre I'm listening to and sometimes based on sheer impulse. I don't believe there is one best amp. There are many great output tubes out there and I would be very hard pressed to choose just one.

One last thought. While I absolutely adore Shindo amps, I have found wonderful music making pairing a Shindo preamp with a non-Shindo amps as well. One of my very favorite SET tubes is a 45 which Shindo does not offer in its product line. While I will not argue the party line on "Shindo synergy", I wanted to make this point in case someone feels that they have to own both a Shindo preamp and amp combo in order to have good sound. The Shindo preamps are world class and have been extremely musical with almost every amp I've tried them on (the notable exception being a class D amp I tried - blech)
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Speakers: Tonian classic 12 (PHY driver) and Hawthorn Audio Trios (Open Baffle). Analog Source: Nottingham Ana-log, Garrard 301. Tonearms: SME 312S, SME M2-12R, Nottingham Unipivot. Cartridge: Koetsu Onyx, Lyra Helikon Mono, Ortofon SPU Classic. Digital Source: Eastern Electric Dac +. Electronics: Shindo Vosne Romane Preamp, 45,2A3,300B,F2a,GM70 SET amps, Atma-sphere S30 OTL, Dynaco ST-70, Shindo Haut-Brion
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:42 AM
FranklinLG FranklinLG is offline
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Old Grey, thanks for the thoughtful and helpful input. I note, too, that you're in Cleveland. FWIW, I was born there and grew up in North Olmsted and Westlake. After parsing through yours and Sibelius's comments, I suspect I really should do a "wine tasting" before plunking anything down on one of these amps. And, of course, an ideal tasting would be here, locally...

PS - I pulled the trigger on the Vosne Romanee earlier. A little nuts, but still, I can't wait.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:20 AM
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audiot servant audiot servant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FranklinLG View Post
Old Grey, thanks for the thoughtful and helpful input. I note, too, that you're in Cleveland. FWIW, I was born there and grew up in North Olmsted and Westlake. After parsing through yours and Sibelius's comments, I suspect I really should do a "wine tasting" before plunking anything down on one of these amps. And, of course, an ideal tasting would be here, locally...

PS - I pulled the trigger on the Vosne Romanee earlier. A little nuts, but still, I can't wait.
Many congrats on the VR, sometimes a little nuts is a good thing... especially if it makes you do something crazy that you will end up loving for life we should all be so crazy!

Graham
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FranklinLG View Post
Old Grey, thanks for the thoughtful and helpful input. I note, too, that you're in Cleveland. FWIW, I was born there and grew up in North Olmsted and Westlake. After parsing through yours and Sibelius's comments, I suspect I really should do a "wine tasting" before plunking anything down on one of these amps. And, of course, an ideal tasting would be here, locally...

PS - I pulled the trigger on the Vosne Romanee earlier. A little nuts, but still, I can't wait.

I've been in Cleveland for about 10 years now. I've been all over and I personally think it gets a bad rap. Not many places with such great music, art, food, pro sports, etc. without the headaches of a big metropolitan area. Sure, the long winters leaves something to be desired, but it's a great excuse to stay inside & listen to music!

Congrats on the VR! Yep. As you've gathered, the amps are much more personal taste than the preamps. Do you have Shindo/Devore dealers in FL? Funny you should make the move to Shindo/Devore down there when you had one of the best dealers right here in NEO. Life always seems to work that way.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:42 PM
lowens lowens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FranklinLG View Post
Old Grey, thanks for the thoughtful and helpful input. I note, too, that you're in Cleveland. FWIW, I was born there and grew up in North Olmsted and Westlake. After parsing through yours and Sibelius's comments, I suspect I really should do a "wine tasting" before plunking anything down on one of these amps. And, of course, an ideal tasting would be here, locally...

PS - I pulled the trigger on the Vosne Romanee earlier. A little nuts, but still, I can't wait.
Franklin:

Congrats on the VR! No doubt your will love it, it's a beauty.
I find it interesting the way fellow Shindo based individuals assemble their systems. Some spend way more on their Shindo pre's in relation to their speakers. Your VR's capability with be fully fleshed out with the O96's, however the resolving power of the Shindo Petite Latour would likely be even higher. The Petite Latour is a rather large speaker and can't fit into some environments. What was your logic for going with the O96's over Shindo based speakers?
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:11 PM
FranklinLG FranklinLG is offline
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Default Warning - I got carried away and wrote a little more than I expected...

Lowens,

Candidly, I don’t think I can say I employ any tangible logic with any of this. I do think, however, that over time I’ve learned to lessen my errors a great deal with experience and a little due diligence! So relying on that and gut instincts has put me where I’m at right now.

Now to whatever logic that was employed, well, I think the following points may provide some insight:

• Budget! The Petite (and all of Shindo’s speakers) is significantly more expensive than the O. But the O was within a “comfortable” range for me.
• I did not had a chance to listen to either the Orangutans or Shindo, but felt more comfortable with the financial risks going with the Orangutan instead of the shindo. I think before I make that kind of jump I'm flying to a dealer and listening!
• I totally dig the look of the Orangutan! And more so than the Petite.
• W.A.F.!
• My set-up does double duty with HT and audio. This is out of necessity and not necessarily preference. So décor, décor, décor… See note above about W.A.F.!
• I have a large room, so I can work with a lot of options, and was led to believe the O would more than fill the room, which I think it has with the 300B.
• My understanding is that the Orangutans were "voiced" with a 300B, who's I don't know. But that's what I read and or heard. I was also led to believe that the 300B is an ideal match for the Orangutan!
• Did I mention budget?
• Did I mention W.A.F.?

Last edited by FranklinLG; 01-06-2012 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:44 PM
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Stercom Stercom is offline
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Just chill for a while when your VR arrives. I think its going to go very well with your Sophia Electric 300bs - which are excellent amps. Personally, I would recommend a decent analog system before changing your amps.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:48 PM
sibelius sibelius is offline
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I agree with Stercom. Once you get your VR, enjoy it and take some time to get acquainted with your new sound before thinking about about incorporating a new piece. The VR indeed should work real well with your 300B amp. I see you have a Koetsu cartridge. If you want some recommendations for an external SUT based on different price points let me know. I've listened to about ten SUT's over the past few years and can give you my subjective opinions on what I find works well with Koetsu's.
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Speakers: Tonian classic 12 (PHY driver) and Hawthorn Audio Trios (Open Baffle). Analog Source: Nottingham Ana-log, Garrard 301. Tonearms: SME 312S, SME M2-12R, Nottingham Unipivot. Cartridge: Koetsu Onyx, Lyra Helikon Mono, Ortofon SPU Classic. Digital Source: Eastern Electric Dac +. Electronics: Shindo Vosne Romane Preamp, 45,2A3,300B,F2a,GM70 SET amps, Atma-sphere S30 OTL, Dynaco ST-70, Shindo Haut-Brion
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