Ayre QX-5 Twenty First Listen

[BillK]

True, but both Stereophile and TAS give high marks to Oppo's current audiophile player, the BDP-105, and the 205 is slated to be its UHD equivalent.

I don't expect it to rival the QX-5 Twenty, but how will its sound quality compare for its price?

[ctsooner]

It's very subjective. I'm friends with Matt on Audiogon who's got the long long DAC shootout thread. He's got most of the big name ones in his system and we don't always agree on sound (who among us do), but I know what he hears for the most part. I won't share what DAC's my friend was talking about as he's in the business and that's not fair.

I personally have has the Empirical Audio ODSE/SE (owned), Rossini, Berk Ref, Brinkman Nyquist, Chord Dave, AR Ref 9, Aesthetix Eclipse to name a few in my own system or at a dealer or two who's rooms and systems I'm very familiar with.

All are outstanding DAC's that I'd love to live with. They all have sonic signatures like anything else. Some to me are very dry and not musical. They lack pace and rhythm. Some like the Chord are beautiful on top, but aren't as strong in the bass region, so there isn't the coherency I seem to be sensitive to. The Berk Ref 2 is a really nice DAC also, but has never been a favorite of mine as I can't connect with it. The Nyquist is VERY VERY interesting. Not getting any press in the US per say, but man is it good. It may be better, but I only had about two hours listening to it and it wasn't music I was as used to. The Total DAC, Trinity and Harmonic Lightspeed seem to be better according to close friends who have had them in the systems recently. I haven't heard their newest ones so I can't comment.

Ayre is not the be all end all. It does offer as much flexibility as anything else and it has a world class headphone amp in it also. That amp is better than any can amp I've heard to date including the top Woo. I like the Ayre as it's musical. I still am not sure if it has the same detail and large soundstage as my Empirical Audio, which was/is a KILLER.

Do I feel the QX5/20 is a Killer DAC? Yes, I personally do, but many others don't and that's fine. Subjective to say the least, but to get sound that's comparable or better in some or many ways as DAC's in the 15k plus range is amazing to ME. I've never heard a bad thing about the TotalDAC. Michael Lavorgna of Audiostream has both in at the same time. He bought the totalDAC, but said the the Ayre was very very close. That alone says a ton and to him, I would think that means giant killer although I don't want to put words in his mouth. I have met him and kept in touch. If you follow him, you know how he listens and what he hears. I'm close to his ball park, so maybe his reviews mean more to me than most.

I agree about the Ayre MXR/KXR 20 version's. Even being subjective, most I know who actually listen fall in love regardless of price. I like many electronics companies and not just Ayre. I own other gear, but feel that their amps are outstanding values in high end and work great with my Vandersteen's. Maybe the is synergy with my AX5/20 and that helps it sound better? I don't know, but for me it doesn't matter.

Folks need to go listen for themselves and make up their own minds. I have a friend who uses the new Bricasti and swears by it and another who owns ht EMM (actually folks) who like the new Lightspeed better and one who likes the Empirical Audio ODSX better. In the end, it's all good.

[Bar81]

Originally Posted by ctsooner

It's very subjective. I'm friends with Matt on Audiogon who's got the long long DAC shootout thread. He's got most of the big name ones in his system and we don't always agree on sound (who among us do), but I know what he hears for the most part. I won't share what DAC's my friend was talking about as he's in the business and that's not fair.

I personally have has the Empirical Audio ODSE/SE (owned), Rossini, Berk Ref, Brinkman Nyquist, Chord Dave, AR Ref 9, Aesthetix Eclipse to name a few in my own system or at a dealer or two who's rooms and systems I'm very familiar with.

All are outstanding DAC's that I'd love to live with. They all have sonic signatures like anything else. Some to me are very dry and not musical. They lack pace and rhythm. Some like the Chord are beautiful on top, but aren't as strong in the bass region, so there isn't the coherency I seem to be sensitive to. The Berk Ref 2 is a really nice DAC also, but has never been a favorite of mine as I can't connect with it. The Nyquist is VERY VERY interesting. Not getting any press in the US per say, but man is it good. It may be better, but I only had about two hours listening to it and it wasn't music I was as used to. The Total DAC, Trinity and Harmonic Lightspeed seem to be better according to close friends who have had them in the systems recently. I haven't heard their newest ones so I can't comment.

Ayre is not the be all end all. It does offer as much flexibility as anything else and it has a world class headphone amp in it also. That amp is better than any can amp I've heard to date including the top Woo. I like the Ayre as it's musical. I still am not sure if it has the same detail and large soundstage as my Empirical Audio, which was/is a KILLER.

Do I feel the QX5/20 is a Killer DAC? Yes, I personally do, but many others don't and that's fine. Subjective to say the least, but to get sound that's comparable or better in some or many ways as DAC's in the 15k plus range is amazing to ME. I've never heard a bad thing about the TotalDAC. Michael Lavorgna of Audiostream has both in at the same time. He bought the totalDAC, but said the the Ayre was very very close. That alone says a ton and to him, I would think that means giant killer although I don't want to put words in his mouth. I have met him and kept in touch. If you follow him, you know how he listens and what he hears. I'm close to his ball park, so maybe his reviews mean more to me than most.

I agree about the Ayre MXR/KXR 20 version's. Even being subjective, most I know who actually listen fall in love regardless of price. I like many electronics companies and not just Ayre. I own other gear, but feel that their amps are outstanding values in high end and work great with my Vandersteen's. Maybe the is synergy with my AX5/20 and that helps it sound better? I don't know, but for me it doesn't matter.

Folks need to go listen for themselves and make up their own minds. I have a friend who uses the new Bricasti and swears by it and another who owns ht EMM (actually folks) who like the new Lightspeed better and one who likes the Empirical Audio ODSX better. In the end, it's all good.

If you're going to put comparisons out there it seems a little strange to then refuse to say what the other units are. It's a shame as it's always helpful to get opinions from people's actual experience.

Ultimately we just have vastly different ideas of what constitutes a giant killer. For me, giants are MSB DAC V, DCS stack, EMM Labs DA2, etc. The DAC needs to hang in that rarified air, not just punch above its class.

[ctsooner]

Bar, I won't put out the names of the ones he did, because he politely asked me not to. I did however name a few pretty good DAC's that are all (I think) more expensive than the QX5/20 that I've personally had in the system or owned recently.

I haven't been able to hear the EMM, but have two friends who LOVE theirs. I have heard the most recent DCS stack and for my ears, they are fatiguing. Hyper detailed, yes, but not warm and musical the way I personally like my music. Was talking with a shop owner the other day about that particular set of boxes and he agrees with me. Said he could never live with one in his system. You didn't mention the Empirical Audio ODSX as you have probably never heard one. Two folks I know say that has to be in the conversation of great DAC's. Lightspeed is another that seems to also be, but I haven't heard the most recent one. I know in the past it's been an excellent DAC.

So we have vastly different opinions on what's a giant killer. OK. To me it's a product that punches way above it's weight class (weight class being your words, so I'm not totally sure of your context). The QX5 does that and most who have auditioned it feel the same way. Folks who sell it love it for this very reason. Is it the be all end all? No and I don't think I ever said it was, nor would I.

I feel Ayre is underpriced and the top value high end electronics on the market. Many top dealers I speak with feel it's the best SS amps they've ever carried and it's usually much less than what many other ref amps are. It's not a SS nor Tube sound to my ears and that's a huge reason I have fallen in love with their gear. I could have had my Empirical Audio DAC turned into the ODSX as Steve made a most generous offer, but I did want flexibility of inputs and control in the digital realm. I do like the sound better than a few of the 15k plus DAC's I've auditioned or had in the house. To me that is a GIANT KILLER. To you, it punches above a weight class. If that's a vast difference to you, ok.

In the end, I really pray that folks go out and listen to DAC's before purchasing one that costs as much as any of them in this thread.

[ylee]

I'm doing research on Totaldac and like what I've read about them so far. Right now I'm trying to decide between Totaldac and PS Audio. A Benchmark DAC3 will be my baseline DAC since it was made to drive my AHB2 amp directly.

As for Ayre amplifiers, I'm in agreement they are among the best I personally have heard. They are smooth yet incredibly revealing.

[ctsooner]

Interesting. PS Audio's DAC isn't even in the conversation with the Ayre let alone the TotalDAC. Not just prices. Your observations will be interesting to read. Glad you are doing it. The costs are very different. Is there a reason you aren't putting Ayre in your search? I'd also put the Brinkman, DAVE, and anything else in the mid teen range if you are looking at the TotalDac. Lot's of choices and they all sound differently for different ears. I notice you have Quatro's and Maggies. I would assume the TotalDAC will blow you away. The Ayre is also very very musical.

[ylee]

Originally Posted by ctsooner

Interesting. PS Audio's DAC isn't even in the conversation with the Ayre let alone the TotalDAC. Not just prices. Your observations will be interesting to read. Glad you are doing it. The costs are very different. Is there a reason you aren't putting Ayre in your search? I'd also put the Brinkman, DAVE, and anything else in the mid teen range if you are looking at the TotalDac. Lot's of choices and they all sound differently for different ears. I notice you have Quatro's and Maggies. I would assume the TotalDAC will blow you away. The Ayre is also very very musical.

I'm going through a bit of an eclectic phase - experimenting with equipment that aren't sold in the same stores. Hence the Benchmark amp with the Quatro. I'm a huge fan of Ayre. The QX-5 offers a LOT of functionality that I'm not sure I'll need however. I'm looking to stick with USB, and I think a lot of the cost of the QX-5 goes into the additional connectivity that makes it a digital hub as opposed to just a straightforward DAC.

The Totaldac is admittedly in the lead at this point for my wallet. Every review I've found indicates it is an exquisite sounding DAC, with analog levels of refinement and visceral experience in listening. It has a very high S/N ratio that would complement my amp very well. I'm considering the d1-six with the clock/server combo which elevates the cost well into the teens. There are a lot of things competing for my financial priority in this season of life (growing family), so I'm doing my due diligence.

Edit: I like PS Audio (among some others) use of FPGA and Totaldac's use of the R2R ladder architecture for their respective DACs as opposed to purchasing a set of sigma-delta chips. In PS Audio's case, they can write software to continually upgrade their products with a firmware download. Totaldac has a history of upgrading their DACs as long as the circuit board size doesn't change for a new design.

Edit x 2: It is the nature of audiophilia that I just now stumbled on John Atkinson's review of Meridian's Ultra DAC and am wondering if I should stretch my budget still even more. It does MQA as it is.

[ctsooner]

That's cool. The cost of the Ayre is based around many things. The engineers where given nearly cart blanche. That clock they use is very expensive and as good as you can get. I think that's where a ton of money went. The guy who designed it is one of, if not the top USB guy going. I don't know the whole story there, but was reminded last night by a friend who heaving into digital and knows whats going on.

That TotalDAC is a great one. I have only heard it once and not for a long time, but was impressed. I've only been impressed by a few DAC's. I know that upsets many, but I don't look at costs and I don't look at reviews. I will read them, but I have my own ears and trust them. The Ayre isn't the be all end all and unless they come up with a ref DAC, it never will be. You will however need to spend considerably more, at least for now and to my ear, to get better. To me, I can't justify twice the price for a DAC that is just a bit better, but if you can, go for it. You surely won't be upset as it's detailed and highly musical. You can tell the layering is there as is the big stage etc... Some products you can listen for a half hour and know if you like it or not. I can't wait to hear my buddy's Lightharmonic DAvinci mk 2. I've NEVER heard one thing about their DAC;s that wasn't ultra positive. I wish I could afford that. Depending on your tastes, you will have a nice selection of DACs to chose from.

[ylee]

Thanks. I value your opinion given how much research you've done and the passion you bring to this hobby. It's hard to miss your presence on many websites including Audiostream where you've engaged in dialog. Magazine reviews only go so far. When a reviewer expends superlatives on, say, a $2k DAC, it's hard to gauge how much better a $9k or a $23k DAC is. While most of us know it's diminishing returns, we live for that incremental improvement that gives us more insight into the performance and the musicians' intent. Your observations serve as data points for me on multiple DACs I've been looking into.

[ctsooner]

Wrong thread, but the Quatro's are now installed and breaking in. The crossover was installed into the AX5/20 directly and holy cow is there real tuneful bass. I'm blown away by how great my room sounds now. Not even broken in yet, but the whole system is already starting to smooth out a bit. The Havana Black is surreal. Having an electrician coming over in a few minutes to look at installing a conduit isolated circuit with double runs of 14/3 on a 20amp circuit. Also having him drop two LED floods over the speakers so I can have a dark room with the speakers lit up to show off the metallic flake. So excited. Had to share.