Perhaps Dave Wilson knows best after all

[Charles]

I believe I have owned my Thor for about 3 years. When I bought it I read the OM carefully. The clear recommendation was to run the Thor employing the Wilson active crossover independent of the Maxxes providing the preamp had two main outs, which my Mac C-1000 does. However, I was sold on the sound of the crossover and ran a totally active configuration with both HP and LP employed. It just made sense to me with all the really low frequency material I have. Take the strain off the Maxx woofers I said. The Maxx woofers when heavily stressed always made very significant excursions, which bothered me. Many speakers woofers simply ignore the really low notes. Not the Maxxes. They responded. I thought just turn the sub up a little to make up for the Maxxes' contribution to the really low notes. Seemed logical. However, I began to have problems with the right speaker that was incredibly subtle. I wondered if my hearing was going. So I took the HP out but still left the Maxxes run through the crossover but run full range. This resulted in a significant improvement in sound but the problem with the right speaker's treble remained. It was so subtle I waited eight months. Then I said to myself: "I want a new tweeter. Period." So I got one. Wilson never said a word. In fact they even said something was wrong with the tweeter, though they never said what it was. I listen to computer audio. I also noticed that consistently there was always at least one glitch. Mac has had a significant upgrade to the MC1100. Mine went back to the factory. I wanted it done correctly and I didn't trust my dealer. During that time my Thor came in. The glitch continued though there was very significant improvement in the sound with the upgrade. I wrote it off to re-clocking and the vagaries of the digital age.

Now just on a lark. I don't know why. Actually I do know why. I listened to the ML Ethos recently and I really liked what I heard. I know Toga really likes his and I could see why. Great pace, resolution, and great tight bass. I went back with some CD's that tested the midrange smoothness and liked it less so. My Maxxes were clearly superior and the problem with the right treble was completely resolved. But something was moving in my subconscious. I finally connected my Maxxes and Thor the way Dave Wilson had suggested all along. Now my glitch is completely gone and my resolution has significantly improved. The right channel sounds great. In retrospect I see I had so many variables in play that I was completely unaware of that it was impossible to ferret all of them out. To the Maxxes great credit their sound never ever fell apart becoming discontinuous in the manner I have heard in so many speakers that are really terrific in one part of the frequency range but deficient elsewhere.

Would that inconsistency I heard in the right channel treble have been present with the Maxxes run full range through Main 2? Why did the active crossover cause a glitch even with HP out but with the Maxxes still run through it full range? Why with the system run completely full range out of Main 1 and Main 2 is there nearly a 10 dB drop in volume in both the Thor and Maxx3's. I have to turn the volume up 10 dB in my C-1000 to obtain the equivalent loudness.

All this leads me to believe that after 40 years in high end audio perhaps I don't understand nearly as much as I thought I did. High end systems are extremely complex. I would be very careful not to have multiple D/A and A/D conversions before the signal reaches the speaker. If a simple analog crossover can do this what must a more complicated digital crossover do to the signal?

I conclude two things: The simpler the better/Perhaps I should have listened to Dave Wilson regarding how to set my Thor up to begin with.

[Still-One]

Nice write-up Charles. Thanks for posting.

[chessman]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing that.

[tima]

Did you ever have Wilson staff or a Wilson dealer in your room for a listen or setup help?

[Charles]

Originally Posted by tima

Did you ever have Wilson staff or a Wilson dealer in your room for a listen or setup help?

Of course the dealer set the Maxxes and the sub but it takes time to figure out your connections. I thought I understood subs and crossovers pretty well. I never have and still don't understand the rationale for the way Dave Wilson recommends setting up his subs. IMO, Gary Protein's opinion is the one I shared for many years, that with subs you should employ an excellent active electronic crossover and run HP/LP fully implemented. However, I tell you it caused me problems. My system definitely sounds much better with the sub run from Main 1 and the Speaker from Main 2. The glitch is another thing that really bothers me. It is gone. My MC1100 has not glitched once since I made the change about 10 days ago. Also I don't understand the gain drop. All I know is that my right channel sounds fine, the glitch is gone, and the Maxxes sound so much better. We spend so much time debating the nuances of the silk dome vs. the inverted Ti tweeter when what we think we are hearing may not be remotely related to any real difference. It's almost embarrassing for me to admit how far off base I really was.

[2fastdriving]

Originally Posted by Charles

Of course the dealer set the Maxxes and the sub but it takes time to figure out your connections. I thought I understood subs and crossovers pretty well. I never have and still don't understand the rationale for the way Dave Wilson recommends setting up his subs. IMO, Gary Protein's opinion is the one I shared for many years, that with subs you should employ an excellent active electronic crossover and run HP/LP fully implemented. However, I tell you it caused me problems. My system definitely sounds much better with the sub run from Main 1 and the Speaker from Main 2. The glitch is another thing that really bothers me. It is gone. My MC1100 has not glitched once since I made the change about 10 days ago. Also I don't understand the gain drop. All I know is that my right channel sounds fine, the glitch is gone, and the Maxxes sound so much better. We spend so much time debating the nuances of the silk dome vs. the inverted Ti tweeter when what we think we are hearing may not be remotely related to any real difference. It's almost embarrassing for me to admit how far off base I really was.

I definitely agree that our minds can play all kinds of tricks on us. I'm still not sure I believe in premium cables even though I've heard the difference there. My logical side says no way.

But I can definitively say, without a shadow of doubt, that I listened to my Sasha 1's all night long the night before I got my 2's, and I am sure that I heard a big difference the second we plopped the 2's down. I even played the 1's for 20 minutes before we replaced them, just to see how much of a comparison there would be. Sure, it took 45 minutes to unwrap and place the new speakers and our minds could still play some tricks, but I am sure there's a difference. I know both tweeters very well by now.

BUT...that does not mean there is anything wrong with the ti tweeter. I loved it too. Please don't misunderstand that. I am sure your Maxx's sound amazing now. I'm happy to hear you cleared up some issues you were having

[tima]

Originally Posted by Charles

... I never have and still don't understand the rationale for the way Dave Wilson recommends setting up his subs. ... We spend so much time debating the nuances of the silk dome vs. the inverted Ti tweeter when what we think we are hearing may not be remotely related to any real difference....

Dave Wilson's recommendation was (likely) made for sonic reasons and, the way I read your words, you rejected it based on your belief in a theory or a rationale of what should be the case rather than what your ears told you.

Our ears work the way they do; yours kept telling you something was not right. In a way, our hearing system is the objective mechanism and our theories are subjective expressions about what they tell us!

To paraphrase Linda Ronstadt, reason is harsh mistress. But in the end we cannot out think what we hear. Sometimes it is difficult for our cognitive faculties to bow to what our limbic awareness tells us. Listen to your ears.

And congratulations on a resolution.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by tima

Dave Wilson's recommendation was (likely) made for sonic reasons and, the way I read your words, you rejected it based on your belief in a theory or a rationale of what should be the case rather than what your ears told you.

Our ears work the way they do; yours kept telling you something was not right. In a way, our hearing system is the objective mechanism and our theories are subjective expressions about what they tell us!

To paraphrase Linda Ronstadt, reason is harsh mistress. But in the end we cannot out think what we hear. Sometimes it is difficult for our cognitive faculties to bow to what our limbic awareness tells us. Listen to your ears.

And congratulations on a resolution.

When I joined this website I thought I knew a whole lot. I have learned a lot and one of the main things, and I mean this so sincerely, is that maybe I don't know very much at all. I had such strong convictions about a number of things that turned out to be incorrect, at least in my system. In regards to 2Fastdrivings comment all I can really say is that in his room with his system the silk dome is the superior tweeter. I believe that. But we are truly talking about nuances. It may be different in your room and with your equipment. And your equipment must be working correctly. I wish that I had these 3 years back. Now I understand that Mr. Wilson know best, what works best with his speakers. I should have listened to him.