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  #51  
Old 09-01-2020, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
This is a common setup and there's no reason why one cannot pipe line level signals from one device to another. Line level is what you get from a DAC, disc player or preamp output and you know you can interconnect these, so no reason you cannot connect preamp to preamp
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Originally Posted by edward3132 View Post
Further clarification. Using an integrated amp is a little trickier. You would actually use its preamp outputs to the other preamp not its speaker outputs thus bypassing the amplifiers. Most integrated amps have the preamp section connected to the amp section with a set of clamps (not sure of correct wording) If you remove the clamp you separate the preamp and amp sections thus allowing you to feed another preamp or a different set of amps.

Most modern AV receivers have 7.1 outputs that can feed another preamp or amp thus not using the ones in the receiver.
Kal & Edward..... Okay, so no reason to think that one preamp section can't be a [direct] source for another preamp...but I'm assuming that the unit being used as the primary preamplifier -- be it an AV pre/pro or an AV receiver -- would have to be manufactured with preamp outputs, correct?

Edward..... If the newer AV receivers you're referring to are designed with "7.1 outputs" that can be routed to a separate preamp or a separate power amp, what's the purpose of removing the "clamp" (or whatever it's called)?

No doubt, I can understand why isolating a preamp stage from its power amp stage, in an integrated amplifier design, would be ideal...but, after reading the first paragraph of your last post (above), I was thinking that the "isolation" was already taken care of via the preamplifier outputs you mentioned?
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OUR VINTAGE MAC: MAC4100, MAC4200 | AMPS: MC452, MC300 | MAC PRE/PROS: MX151, MX130, MX121 | B&W SPEAKERS: (2) N802s, (2) N805s, (1) HTM3S | NEWER EQUIPMENT: Oppo 203 & 105D, Sony X800M2, Denon CDR-W1500 | VIDEO DISPLAY: 65" LG OLED | IMPORTANT NOTE: Zero High-speed internet connections
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  #52  
Old 09-01-2020, 12:00 PM
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Bill

In most cases, the clamp mentioned are on stereo integrated amps. Most surround processors/prepro's do not have them.

Yes In most modern AV receivers the pre outs are separate so no need to remove anything. Just connect the pre outs to another preamp input or directly to amplifiers.

Now not all AV receivers have those outputs. Usually you have to start at midrange price to get it. In the case of Marantz usually start with the AVR 50xx series

Of course any pre pro has those outputs since no amplifier.

Hope this helps.

Edward
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Analog Sources: Oppo 203, Oppo 105, DirecTV, AppleTV 4K, Roku Ultra, Nvidia Shield
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  #53  
Old 09-01-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edward3132 View Post
Bill

In most cases, the clamp mentioned are on stereo integrated amps. Most surround processors/prepro's do not have them.

Yes In most modern AV receivers the pre outs are separate so no need to remove anything. Just connect the pre outs to another preamp input or directly to amplifiers.

Now not all AV receivers have those outputs. Usually you have to start at midrange price to get it. In the case of Marantz usually start with the AVR 50xx series

Of course any pre pro has those outputs since no amplifier.

Hope this helps.
Okay, Edward, now I understand that to get the "separation" we're discussing, one usually has to look at a pretty decent AV receiver. I also understand that this concept of separation doesn't apply to an AV pre-pro, due to the fact that they are closer to what I know as a "separate component," which, given enough money, is really the ideal setup.

As there is no board for it, I wanted to ask you about your Oppo players and, specifically, about your Oppo 105. Do you use that player as a source for "ripping" audio data from physical media (SACDs, etc)?
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OUR VINTAGE MAC: MAC4100, MAC4200 | AMPS: MC452, MC300 | MAC PRE/PROS: MX151, MX130, MX121 | B&W SPEAKERS: (2) N802s, (2) N805s, (1) HTM3S | NEWER EQUIPMENT: Oppo 203 & 105D, Sony X800M2, Denon CDR-W1500 | VIDEO DISPLAY: 65" LG OLED | IMPORTANT NOTE: Zero High-speed internet connections
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  #54  
Old 09-01-2020, 04:36 PM
Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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Bill,

If you want to get really good stereo (two channel) reproductions of your stereo music I suggest you get a very good stereo preamp that has HT (home theater) bypass input and connect either your AV pre pro (MX130) or any other pre pro's front LR pre-out channels to the HT bypass input on the stereo preamp for home theater or movies and control the volume from your AV pre pro when watching movies. And use the volume on the stereo preamp when listening to stereo music. And connect the stereo pre to your amp that powers your front LR speakers.

The HT bypass input on the stereo preamp will disable and bypass the volume control on that stereo preamp (unity gain). This HT bypass (HT passthrough) is a line level input meant to be connected from an AV pre pro's front LR pre-out channels or an AVR's front LR channels pre-out.

If you decide to sell your MX130 pre pro and get an AVR (AV receiver), run the front LR pre-out channels to the HT bypass input on the stereo pre. And again, for the same, use the volume control on the AVR when watching movies.

Or alternatively, you can get a stereo integrated amp that has HT bypass (HT passthrough) input and sell your MC300 power amp since it's an old amp. And the stereo integrated amp powers your main front LR speakers. And run your AV pre pro or AVR front LR pre-out to this HT bypass on the stereo integrated amp.

Or you can get a used Classe SSP 800 pre pro or Classe Sigma SSP pre pro. These Classe pre pros are great for both stereo music and surround sound movies. These Classes are optimized for stereo music or when used as a high end stereo preamp for listening to music. With either of the SSP 800 or the Sigma SSP you won't have to look for a separate high end stereo pre for your stereo duties (for listening to stereo music). They serve as your high end stereo preamps as well as multichannel / surround sound preamp processors. However, both the SSP 800 & the Sigma SSP do not support 4K video and Dolby Atmos/DTS-X surround sound formats. They do support 1080p video and DTS-HD Master Audio & Dolby True-HD.

FYI,
AVR (AV receiver) = AV pre pro (multichannel AV preamp surround processor) + multichannel power amps in a single chassis. It's like a multichannel / surround version of the stereo integrated amp with an addition of video board (HDMI).
AV pre pro = multichannel AV preamp surround processor (with video board/HDMI switchings) with no amplifier section and cannot drive passive speakers. The AV pre pro (HT processor) is to be connected to the multichannel amps or a combinations of monoblock amps or stereo amps and multichannel amps. Basically you can use all kinds of amps (monoblock, stereo, multichannel) to power all your speakers in home theater setup.
I've seen people using all monoblock amps to power all his speakers in their home theater setup but will be very costly indeed. Or some use 3 monoblock amps to power their front LCR speakers and use multichannel amp(s) to power their surrounds, or a pair of monoblocks for front LR speakers and use multichannel amp(s) to power the rest of the speakers depending on your speaker configurations (5.1 ; 7.1 ; 9.1 ; 11.1 or 5.1.4 ; 7.1.4 ; 9.1.4 in Atmos/DTS-X setups).

Last edited by Dilettante; 09-01-2020 at 04:54 PM.
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  #55  
Old 09-01-2020, 05:24 PM
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Thumbs up Nice post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
Bill,

If you want to get really good stereo (two channel) reproductions of your stereo music I suggest you get a very good stereo preamp that has HT (home theater) bypass input and connect either your AV pre pro (MX130) or any other pre pro's front LR pre-out channels to the HT bypass input on the stereo preamp for home theater or movies and control the volume from your AV pre pro when watching movies. And use the volume on the stereo preamp when listening to stereo music. And connect the stereo pre to your amp that powers your front LR speakers.

The HT bypass input on the stereo preamp will disable and bypass the volume control on that stereo preamp (unity gain). This HT bypass (HT passthrough) is a line level input meant to be connected from an AV pre pro's front LR pre-out channels or an AVR's front LR channels pre-out.

If you decide to sell your MX130 pre pro and get an AVR (AV receiver), run the front LR pre-out channels to the HT bypass input on the stereo pre. And again, for the same, use the volume control on the AVR when watching movies.

Or alternatively, you can get a stereo integrated amp that has HT bypass (HT passthrough) input and sell your MC300 power amp since it's an old amp. And the stereo integrated amp powers your main front LR speakers. And run your AV pre pro or AVR front LR pre-out to this HT bypass on the stereo integrated amp.

Or you can get a used Classe SSP 800 pre pro or Classe Sigma SSP pre pro. These Classe pre pros are great for both stereo music and surround sound movies. These Classes are optimized for stereo music or when used as a high end stereo preamp for listening to music. With either of the SSP 800 or the Sigma SSP you won't have to look for a separate high end stereo pre for your stereo duties (for listening to stereo music). They serve as your high end stereo preamps as well as multichannel / surround sound preamp processors. However, both the SSP 800 & the Sigma SSP do not support 4K video and Dolby Atmos/DTS-X surround sound formats. They do support 1080p video and DTS-HD Master Audio & Dolby True-HD.

FYI,
AVR (AV receiver) = AV pre pro (multichannel AV preamp surround processor) + multichannel power amps in a single chassis. It's like a multichannel / surround version of the stereo integrated amp with an addition of video board (HDMI).
AV pre pro = multichannel AV preamp surround processor (with video board/HDMI switchings) with no amplifier section and cannot drive passive speakers. The AV pre pro (HT processor) is to be connected to the multichannel amps or a combinations of monoblock amps or stereo amps and multichannel amps. Basically you can use all kinds of amps (monoblock, stereo, multichannel) to power all your speakers in home theater setup.
I've seen people using all monoblock amps to power all his speakers in their home theater setup but will be very costly indeed. Or some use 3 monoblock amps to power their front LCR speakers and use multichannel amp(s) to power their surrounds, or a pair of monoblocks for front LR speakers and use multichannel amp(s) to power the rest of the speakers depending on your speaker configurations (5.1 ; 7.1 ; 9.1 ; 11.1 or 5.1.4 ; 7.1.4 ; 9.1.4 in Atmos/DTS-X setups).
Dilettante..... There's a lot here to digest, but I like having that problem.

When you say that the both the Classe SSP 800 Pre-Pro the Classe Sigma SSP Pre-Pro do not support 4K video, are you saying that it won't pass a 4K video signal through to our OLED TV? I really don't mean to muddy the water, because all of this A/V/D information is complicated enough, but I've seen this mentioned several times now. You see, we're presently routing the video signal coming out of our Sony X800M2 directly to the TV via a high-speed HDMI cable. We have recently viewed a few 4K UHD movies and, apart from being a bit disappointed in the jump from blu ray to 4K UHD blu ray, it worked fine.

If you will, please give us the basics on 4K video "support" and why it's important when it comes to a good pre-pro.

Thanks again
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OUR VINTAGE MAC: MAC4100, MAC4200 | AMPS: MC452, MC300 | MAC PRE/PROS: MX151, MX130, MX121 | B&W SPEAKERS: (2) N802s, (2) N805s, (1) HTM3S | NEWER EQUIPMENT: Oppo 203 & 105D, Sony X800M2, Denon CDR-W1500 | VIDEO DISPLAY: 65" LG OLED | IMPORTANT NOTE: Zero High-speed internet connections
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  #56  
Old 09-02-2020, 02:31 AM
Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70sMac View Post
Dilettante..... There's a lot here to digest, but I like having that problem.

When you say that the both the Classe SSP 800 Pre-Pro the Classe Sigma SSP Pre-Pro do not support 4K video, are you saying that it won't pass a 4K video signal through to our OLED TV? I really don't mean to muddy the water, because all of this A/V/D information is complicated enough, but I've seen this mentioned several times now. You see, we're presently routing the video signal coming out of our Sony X800M2 directly to the TV via a high-speed HDMI cable. We have recently viewed a few 4K UHD movies and, apart from being a bit disappointed in the jump from blu ray to 4K UHD blu ray, it worked fine.

If you will, please give us the basics on 4K video "support" and why it's important when it comes to a good pre-pro.

Thanks again
Bill,

I noticed that your Sony X800M2 4K bluray player has dual HDMI outputs, one for audio and the other for video. If this was your only 4K video source, then you can run the video only HDMI out of your Sony X800 directly to your 4K TV for video only and run the other HDMI out (audio only HDMI out) of your Sony X800 to either the Classe SSP 800 or Classe Sigma SSP for audio only, assuming that you could find a used SSP 800 or Sigma SSP online. And run whatever source component you have for stereo music to either the SSP 800 or the Sigma SSP. Today you can usually find several used ones of these Classe AV preamp processors (SSP 800 & Sigma SSP) online eg Audiogon, eBay, AudioMart, Chuckmart, etc as people are trying to get rid of them since they don't support latest formats eg 4K HDR Dolby Vision Dolby Atmos DTS-X and look for something that supports those latest formats eg 4K HDR Dolby Atmos DTS-X.

To answer your above question, the SSP 800 & the Sigma SSP do not pass through 4K video signal. These processors have been discontinued. The SSP 800 has been out since 2008 and the Sigma SSP has been out since 2014/2015. Unlike Denon & Marantz, a small high end boutique brand such as Classe is very slow to adopt to the new latest audio video formats with their home theater processors.
But you can run one HDMI out of your Sony X800 4K bluray player direct to your 4K TV for video only and run the other HDMI out of the Sony X800 to either the SSP 800 or the Sigma SSP for audio only.

I'm a current owner of the Classe SSP 800 and have had it for almost 9 years now. It is one of the best sounding HT pre pro for both stereo music and surround sound movies. For stereo, the SSP 800 is probably one of the best sounding AV pre pro and competes well with many high end stereo preamps. Only very very few ultra high end AV pre pros (processors) that will sound better than the SSP 800 in stereo for listening to stereo music.
Both the SSP 800 and Sigma SSP stereo performances are top notch, but for surrounds (movies) the SSP 800 is better sounding than the Sigma SSP.
I pair my SSP 800 with Classe amp as well, but you can use any very good capable amps.

The original retail price of the SSP 800 was $9500 and the Sigma SSP was $5k. The Classe Sigma SSP Mkii version originally did retail for $6k.
The Sigma SSP Mkii version does support Dolby Atmos, DTS-X & 4K video but not HDR & Dolby Vision.

Last edited by Dilettante; 09-02-2020 at 11:51 AM.
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  #57  
Old 09-02-2020, 03:28 PM
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Thumbs up Another helpful post

Dilettante..... As I've read your posts, I have to admit that the Classe SSP-800 Pre-Pro has become more interesting to me. As our signature will support, my heart has been with McIntosh (Mac) since the late-70s, but having learned what we (my wife & I) have researched about Mac pre-pros, during these past weeks, the previously "unthinkable" concept of putting our money into A/V equipment that doesn't have a glass front has become increasingly attractive to us.

With this in mind, I'd like to ask you a question or two about your Classe setup. You have owned the SSP-800 pre-pro for many years. You've already indicated that it's a strong unit for both movies and stereo music, but what would you say about its place in A/V/D world today? Do you still believe that it holds its own in terms of connectivity and processing of the latest surround encoding?

As an aside, we recently tested a few 4K UHD blu ray movies...and, quite frankly, I wasn't very impressed. We switched over to a regular blu ray last night, RockNRolla, and it didn't really seem very different to us. Bearing in mind that we've got a direct connection between our Sony X800M2 and our LG OLED TV, we're seeing these movies without any added equipment in the signal path. The point is that, if a suitable used pre-pro doesn't "support" 4K, I don't think that it would present a huge issue to us. Hell, we had (2) 35" JVC tube TVs for many years and, only recently, made the leap to flatscreen...so I really don't think that the latest and greatest -- like the 8K video that's being hinted about -- is really a primary consideration for us.

By the way, if you would share more thoughts on Classe multi-channel power amps, we will try to open our minds a bit further. We hope all is well in your part of the world ~ B&J
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Bill in the Hills

OUR VINTAGE MAC: MAC4100, MAC4200 | AMPS: MC452, MC300 | MAC PRE/PROS: MX151, MX130, MX121 | B&W SPEAKERS: (2) N802s, (2) N805s, (1) HTM3S | NEWER EQUIPMENT: Oppo 203 & 105D, Sony X800M2, Denon CDR-W1500 | VIDEO DISPLAY: 65" LG OLED | IMPORTANT NOTE: Zero High-speed internet connections

Last edited by 70sMac; 09-02-2020 at 05:37 PM.
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  #58  
Old 09-03-2020, 02:50 AM
Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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Hi Bill,

Classe and Mac are on the same level build quality wise and performance wise, they prob sound different depending on your speakers and personal preferences.

The SSP 800 excels in stereo for music as well as surrounds for movies. The SSP 800 is equipped with HDMI v1.4 (latter version which passes through 3D video content) and it decodes DTS-HD Master Audio & Dolby True-HD but not the latest 3D object surround sound formats such as Dolby Atmos & DTS-X. If you don't care about Atmos/DTS-X, which will require additional height in-ceiling Atmos speakers thus requiring additional amplification channels, the SSP 800 would do just fine. As you said earlier, you can pass 4K video from your Sony X800 4K bluray player directly to your 4K TV through one of the HDMI out of your Sony X800, and use the other HDMI out to the AV pre pro (SSP 800 or other pre pro) for audio only.

In regards to 4K HDR video contents vs regular bluray (1080p), the 4K with latest HDR should look better than regular bluray (1080p) contents but it all depends on the movie contents and how they were made and calibrated.

In regards to Classe multi-channel amps, I highly recommend the Classe Delta CA-5300 five-channel amp (discontinued model). The original retail price of the CA-5300 was $9500 but today it can be had for around $5k to $6k in used markets.
Or any great multi-channel amps would do just fine. Or alternatively, you could use a pair of monoblock amps or a stereo amp to power your front LR speakers and find a five-channel amp to power your surrounds in 7.1/7.2 setup, or find a stereo amp to power your surrounds in 5.1/5.2 setup.
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