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  #21  
Old 04-28-2019, 12:53 AM
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Stephen, then I believe what you are saying is that Shunyata engineering is significantly better than AQ in respect to USB cable design and manufacturing. I don't believe this to be the case. If you are not maintaining this then precisely what are you saying? Is Shunyata using some special formula or manufacturing process that elevates the bottom tier Venom above the Diamond? Or is the Diamond defective? I doubt this seriously. In addition, implementation of a design is as important as the design. A large company with a large budget that is as dedicated to cable design as is AQ has significant cost and engineering advantages over a smaller company like Shunyata that is trying to manufacture a similar product. Understand I could I am sure live and be very satisfied with a Sigma USB but you are, in a very sophisticated way, panning AQ. On the one hand you praise the Diamond. On the other it is inferior in your system and to your ears to a bottom tier Venom. Perhaps I am incorrect or have misunderstood.

I think the key here is the phrase "in my system" but I doubt that your preference of the Venom over the Diamond would be the case generally in most folks systems. Certainly I don't believe it would be in mine.

Respectfully,

Charles
Hi Charles, I'll answer your questions point-by-point below since you touch on many topics, and respectfully, I'm not sure we're aligned on the specific points I'm making.

1) ....I believe what you are saying is that Shunyata engineering is significantly better than AQ in respect to USB cable design and manufacturing.

I think very highly of both companies (I use products from both companies; see below). In my view, Shunyata has oustanding scientific and engineering core competencies and knows how to implement superior design embodiments when it comes to products that reduce all manner of noise components and concomitantly maximize signal and signal integrity. Do I think Shunyata Research does this better than anyone else? I haven't heard all other companies' comparable products, so I can't say, but with respect to the USB cable products I have heard, yes, I think Shunyata Research's USB cable products are superior to AQ's existing product portfolio.

Do I think the Shunyata Venom is significantly better than the AQ Diamond USB? No. But, in my system, I prefer it. That is not at all to say the AQ Diamond is not a good-sounding USB cable, its an excellent-sounding USB cable. I just happen to prefer the Venom.

Do I think the Shunyata Alpha USB is better than the AQ Diamond? Yes, and in my system and experience, significantly so.

2) Or is the Diamond defective?

The Diamond is absolutely not defective, its a great-sounding cable. Its been my reference standard for the better part of 5 years.

3) Is Shunyata using some special formula or manufacturing process that elevates the bottom tier Venom above the Diamond?

No, there's not special formula, or pixie dust or other frou-frou. Shunyata uses sound, scientifically-based engineering that is based on a deep understanding what is important at a transfer function level as to what design, materials, construction topology and methodology results in a fuctional response that results, in my experience, a more musical, transparent, spacious, quiet, accurate, and harmonious-sounding cable in the presence of noise factors than the AQ Diamond. They publish patents on their foundational core competencies that are used in their product development. I read and can understand their patents.

4) In addition, implementation of a design is as important as the design.

Yes, I know. As a Design for Six Sigma Master Black Belt, I used to teach this stuff to scientific and engineering teams that were transferring R&D designs into operations. This is one of the reasons that good design teams utilize techniques like Taguchi Robust Design in transferring development projects into Operations. With respect to manufacturing processes: No, there's no magic: Shunyata's products are based on implementing and ensuring good manufacturing operations that are based on process capability (Cp/Cpk), capability analysis, and putting manufacturing of products and processes into statistical process control.

I am confident, given the consistency of quality I've experienced in their products, that Audioquest does the same thing, in one form or another. They couldn't make as many products as they do and remain profitable if they didn't.

5) On the one hand you praise the Diamond. On the other it is inferior in your system and to your ears to a bottom tier Venom. Perhaps I am incorrect or have misunderstood.

I didn't say the Diamond was "inferior"; its a excellent-sounding cable and I have stated that several times. I said I prefer the Venom in my system; to my ears and with my components and configuration, it sounds better. You may not agree, and that's fine, too.

6)....but you are, in a very sophisticated way, panning AQ.

That is absolutely not the case, whatsoever. Audioquest is an excellent company that makes fine products, is environmetally and socially-conscious and they have an excellent reputation for the values they hold for their employees. They provide excellent customer service and stand by their products. For example, I recently contacted AQ about some DBS units that had turned waxy and dirty from the type of plastic they used in molding them. They acknowledged a batch of these had this failure mode, and shipped out four replacement DBS units to me at no charge whatsoever. The manner in which they handled this customer quality problem was absolutely first-class. That is excellent customer service.

Audioquest make an excellent range of products, from the "entry-level" all the way up to the "high-end". Virtually no one else makes such broad a range of products at the various price tiers to compare to with Audioquest's, and, in my experience, each step up in price class delivers a concomitant increase in performance, providing value for money.

I think Auqioquest is a great company that makes and most importantly stands by, their excellent products. This is why my entire loom of interconnects in my main 2-channel stereo is Audioquest Columbia and Colorado RCA ICs. I also use an AQ Big Sur 3.5mm-3.5mm in my car to connect to my Astell & Kern and another Big Sur 3.5 to RCA to connect my Astell & Kern to my main stereo. I use an Audioquest Cinnamon Ethernet cable to connect my EoP Adapter to my upstream FMC. Lastly, I use an Audioquest Coffee USB to connect my Schiit Modi Uber to my Mac Mini for my headphone setup. So, respectfully, I think to infer that I'm panning AQ, however sophisticatedly, is inaccurate.

Lastly, I think folks here that have known me since 2012 will affirm that, as a scientist my entire life, I don't have an agenda. I am strictly data-driven and make my decisions objectively on everything I use based on empirical testing and evaluation, whether its cameras, cars, watches (for example, I happen to be of the view that the Swiss watch industry cannot match the German watch industry when it comes to providing functionality and quality at a given price point), DNA sequencers, or audio equipment. I use whatever works the best that fits within my budget for that class of product.

Cheers and regards,
Stephen aka PC
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Last edited by Puma Cat; 04-28-2019 at 01:23 AM.
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  #22  
Old 04-28-2019, 11:23 AM
Charles Charles is online now
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"No, there's not special formula, or pixie dust or other frou-frou. Shunyata uses sound, scientifically-based engineering that is based on a deep understanding what is important at a transfer function level as to what design, materials, construction topology and methodology results in a fuctional response that results, in my experience, a more musical, transparent, spacious, quiet, accurate, and harmonious-sounding cable in the presence of noise factors than the AQ Diamond. They publish patents on their foundational core competencies that are used in their product development. I read and can understand their patents."

Stephen, I think we are mostly in agreement now because you have reiterated that your beliefs as to the superior sound quality of the Venom are system dependent. However, this statement that I believe to be incorrect is at the crux of our friendly disagreement and clearly shows that you believe that even the lowest tier Venom better engineered than the Diamond. I am sure an AQ senior engineer could refute this statement. I don't make much of it on the website but I too am a scientist but in a different field. However, I am a student of science and understand science so while I appreciate your superior knowledge, its not convincing to me. I have to go now and have no time for a full reply which I will resume later on, but let me mention that the Venom 1.5 meter is a 99 dollar USB cable (Music Direct) marked down from 200 dollars. It is nothing special at all.

Respectfully,

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 04-28-2019 at 11:28 AM.
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  #23  
Old 04-28-2019, 12:24 PM
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For me from a basic upper end PC quality usb cable to a WW silver it was night to day better with the silver cable. Then I stepped up to the WW platinum and I would say yet another %20 or so subjective better yet. The sound was cleaner, better top top end highs, a tab clearer mids and firmer tighter faster bass.

If you have a higher end audiophile system using a basic USB is like putting 85 oct gas in a Hellcat, Vette, Porsche etc... not good a HUGE bottle neck yes..
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  #24  
Old 04-28-2019, 12:26 PM
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.... let me mention that the Venom 1.5 meter is a 99 dollar USB cable (Music Direct) marked down from 200 dollars. It is nothing special at all.

Respectfully,

Charles

Charles, I think we must be extremely happy that a cheap cable does perform so well!
That makes it all the more special.
Just like some Schiit products, Kitsune, AudioGD, Naim, and others that perform well above their price point.
If our beautiful hobby wants to survive, it needs terrific products at an entry level price.
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Last edited by bart; 04-29-2019 at 04:58 AM.
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  #25  
Old 04-28-2019, 10:06 PM
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I think when you look at the Venom cable it is a well engineered bottom tier copper USB cable. It contains no silver. It is a well known fact that silver is very desirable for USB transmission. For this reason even the Forest is .5% silver which is second from the bottom of the 6 USB cables made by AQ. The Forest retails for 49.95 at Music Direct.

Quoting AQ: "Solid conductors eliminate strand-interaction distortion and reduce jitter. Solid silver-plated conductors are excellent for very high-frequency applications, like HDMI audio and video. These signals, being such a high frequency, travel almost exclusively on the surface of the conductor. As the surface is made of high-purity silver, the performance is very close to that of a solid silver cable, but priced much closer to solid copper cable. This is an incredibly cost effective way of manufacturing very high-quality HDMI cables." This also applies to USB transmission.

In regards to the Shunyata Alpha it is 1,000 dollars and is not solid silver. Shunyata does not specify the amount but emphasizes their superior manufacturing methods and you see some type of device built into their cable. This has to be very expensive and must modify in some way the signal which may or may not be beneficial. Many cable manufacturers employ passive devices built into their cables which they claim enhances or preserves the signal.

AQ does not employ this approach but rather takes a "do not harm" to signal transmission. This means building an extremely high quality cable that once the signal enters into it arrives at the input preserved rather than modified by a built in very expensive to manufacture device.

There is no question that the materials AQ uses are more expensive because silver is a much superior conductor for USB than copper. AQ specifies the amount of silver in each USB cable. Shunyata does not for its Alpha until you reach the Sigma which is 100% silver, thereby admitting that when all is said and done, silver is the greatly superior conductor for USB.

I also note that Shunyata does not employ silver period in any of cables at all. Instead they advertise their superior technology and manufacturing methods. They use high quality copper period. I could go on but It won't. Suffice it to say that a company like AQ employs manufacturing methods and design that is at least the equal of Shunyata's. I suspect much better. Their materials are much better and their top tier cables are much more expensive because of it. Almost all of the major cable manufacturers employ silver. Shunyata does not except for their Sigma and Alpha USB cables which ought to tell you something about the importance of silver in USB transmission.

I don't say the the Venom is not a good USB cable but the Venom is just that: a well designed bottom tier copper USB cable selling for 99 dollars. Nothing more.

Charles

Last edited by Charles; 04-28-2019 at 11:05 PM.
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  #26  
Old 04-28-2019, 10:37 PM
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Charles... the Shunyata Alpha USB Cable does not have any type of device built into their cable. The Sigma USB Cable does.

Furthermore the Shunyata Alpha USB Cable runs circles around the AQ Diamond USB in audio performance. I know because I have a few AQ Diamond USB’s just for comparison purposes.
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Last edited by Masterlu; 04-28-2019 at 10:41 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-28-2019, 11:29 PM
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Charles... the Shunyata Alpha USB Cable does not have any type of device built into their cable. The Sigma USB Cable does.

Furthermore the Shunyata Alpha USB Cable runs circles around the AQ Diamond USB in audio performance. I know because I have a few AQ Diamond USB’s just for comparison purposes.
Ivan, I note that you think very highly of the Alpha cable. I have no issue with your preference of the Alpha over the Diamond. It is a 1000 dollar cable and I am sure very well made and sounds extremely good. However, for me in my system being all AQ and all topline silver cables in my main system, I personally would not use the Alpha or the Sigma. This discussion was about the significant superiority of the Venom over the Diamond which I do not believe period.

I use exclusively Mac, AQ, and Wilson. I believe these manufacturers have a house sound that are quite synergistic with each other. For example, I believe that Dag is a superior tier to Mac. Ditto Burmester, Accuphase, etc but for me personally, I'll take the Mac. I don't mix and match. But this is my preference. Nevertheless, there has to be some absolute and to say that the lowest tier Venom significantly beats the best that AQ can do, well it obviously pushed my button.

Charles
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:53 AM
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With respect to electrical properties of both metals conductivity of silver is approximately 5% higher than copper.

This is independent of frequency.
Silver is $15.09/oz on the spot market.
Copper is $2.90/oz on the spot market.
That’s the biggest difference!

BTW, Silver tarnishes, reducing conductivity at high frequencies.

My point is, the totality of the way a cable is engineered and built is more important than just the materials used to make the conductors or the selling price of the end result.

You have to audition what’s out there in your system to really determine what works. Lots of confirmation bias to overcome. Price and performance are often decoupled.

Tom
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  #29  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post

I also note that Shunyata does not employ silver period in any of cables at all. They use high quality copper period.
Actually, that statement is inaccurate. The Shunyata Venom USB cable is, acc. to the Shunyata Research web site: "The signal conductors are silver-plated VTX™

Regardless, there is virtually no reason a copper cable could not sound as good or better than a silver cable. There is ALWAYS more than one way to accomplish a transformation to produce a desired and optimal functional response. This understanding is the key to the design discipline, TRIZ, the Theory of Inventive Problem-Solving, developed by Genrich Altschuler. It could well be that utilizing silver-plated copper is example of TRIZ Inventive Principle, #22, Blessing in Disguise. Or, Triz Inventive Principle #3, Local quality. Or both.

Quote:
I could go on but It won't. Suffice it to say that a company like AQ employs manufacturing methods and design that is at least the equal of Shunyata's. I suspect much better.
I'm confident their manufacturing methods in Ops are comparable, they simply wouldn't be able to manufacture high quality products consistently and remain profitable if they didn't. These are the "facts of life" for manufacturing operations. Audioquest manufactures products of excellent quality, one of the key reasons I use their products. But in the absence of data, there isn't a way to know if they are "much better". And data is the only metric that can be accurately used for supporting statements about Manufacturing Ops discipline and best practices utilized.

Just exploring the theme of "much better" from an Operations perspective: How is "much better" measured statistically, and more importantly, how does a manufacturer implement "much better" into statistical process control? Do they control chart key manufacturing methods as it impacts CFRs (critical funtional responses)? How does a mfr deal with transmission variation from raw material lot-to-lot variability? Do they utilize Taguchi Robust Design DOEs to ensure their manufacturing methods are robust to common cause variation and transmission variation from raw material variability? Do they know how a Taguchi Robust Design L16 DOE matrix would be crucial for obtaining statistical robustness? I don't know; but if so, more power to them. If they're not, they should be.

Furthermore, does AQ conduct formal MSA (measurement systems analysis, a specialized form of ANOVA) to determine that they have sufficient measurement system precision to know that they have a low enough Precision-to-Tolerance ratio (P/T ratio) to detect meaningful differences in functional responses or in Operations, to tell conforming from non-conforming material?

By way of example, I don't remember AQ developing a power cable performance measurement methodology e.g. DTCD, for example, and the instrumentation to measure it accurately and precisely to be able to measure, characterize and optimize the functional performance of power cables. One of the key attritubes of the DTCD metrology is that it has sufficient measurement system precision to accurately and precisely measure power cable performance differences with statistical confidence.

When you state that the Venom USB is "a well designed bottom tier copper USB cable selling for 99 dollars. Nothing more."

What does "nothing more" actually mean"?

Lastly, have you actually heard a Shunyata Venom 3 USB in your system?

If you haven't actually heard a Venom 3 USB in your system, then IMHO, and respectfully, continuing this discusson, as far as I see it, is moot.
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Last edited by Puma Cat; 04-29-2019 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:42 AM
Charles Charles is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
With respect to electrical properties of both metals conductivity of silver is approximately 5% higher than copper.

This is independent of frequency.
Silver is $15.09/oz on the spot market.
Copper is $2.90/oz on the spot market.
That’s the biggest difference!

BTW, Silver tarnishes, reducing conductivity at high frequencies.

My point is, the totality of the way a cable is engineered and built is more important than just the materials used to make the conductors or the selling price of the end result.

You have to audition what’s out there in your system to really determine what works. Lots of confirmation bias to overcome. Price and performance are often decoupled.

Tom
I think Shunyata would agree with you. However, I think AQ would say they can make a cable that is designed and manufactured just as well as Shunyata and that their materials for their top tier cables are much better and more expensive. Most of the major cable manufactures employ solid silver in their top tier cables. I doubt that AQ or anybody else is going to send anybody a 30,000 dollar plus cable to "audition". My cables were custom made. There was zero talk of sending them back if I didn't like'em. Probably, most folks should stay away from solid silver. It's extremely expensive and therefore not cost effective. Silver has no inherent warmth as does copper. However, for me I would never go back to copper. But if you have a system that has any harshness built in, silver can be brutal and a total waste of money. But for my system the clarity/transparency/brilliance and presence solid silver supplies is worth every penny. The Coffee USB was a leftover. I greatly enjoy listening to a system including all power cords that is solid silver.

Last edited by Charles; 05-03-2019 at 03:54 PM.
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