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  #11  
Old 09-10-2018, 01:55 PM
James Tanner - Bryston James Tanner - Bryston is offline
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Generic Active Crossovers vs Bryston BAX-1 Crossover

Hi Folks,

The above comments on the Bryston BAX-1 Active Crossover has motivated me to write this short explanation.

Can the Bryston BAX-1 Electronic Crossover be used with other active or passive loudspeakers? The short answer is ‘NO’ due to a very critical design factor regarding how ‘loudspeaker drivers’ and ‘passive or active crossovers’ interrelate with one another.

Generic active electronic crossovers provide the customer with a 'generic' approach to speaker adjustments. By that I mean you can choose the slope and the crossover point and sometimes the Q but they do not take into account the ‘Sound Power’ or total radiated energy of the speaker. ‘Sound Power’ is the result of the loudspeakers radiation pattern into the listening room.

The two most critical parts of any loudspeaker system choice is the listening ‘Room’ and the loudspeakers ‘Sound Power’. Recognizing how the room imposes its boundaries (floor, ceiling, walls) on the speaker and how that speaker radiates its energy (polar response) into a specific room is critical to the understanding of the overall performance of any loudspeaker.

DIRECT and RELECTED SOUND:
When you are listening to a loudspeaker in a room you are always listening to a balance between the ‘Direct Sound’ and the ‘Reflected Sound’ from the boundaries of the room – this is referred to as the ‘Sound Power.’ It is that balance between direct and reflected energy which changes depending on the frequency radiation pattern (polar response) of the given speaker and the boundaries of the room the speaker is placed in. Dipoles, Bipolar, Omnipoles, Direct Radiators, Horns etc. all behave differently due to their specific radiation patterns and therefore exhibit different power responses in any specific room.

The ‘direct sound’ is the sound radiating from the front of the loudspeaker and the ‘reflected sound’ is all the sound your ears perceive after the sound waves have interacted with all the different boundaries in the room. It is important given real world conditions that the on axis response and the off axis frequency response of a loudspeaker be as uniform as possible. The smoother and more uniform the on and off axis polar response of the speaker the better the tonal balance between the direct sound and the reflected sound will be. In other words, the reflected sound will have the same overall tonal balance and sonic characteristics as the direct sound if ‘on and off’ polar response is smooth and even.

CROSSOVERS:
So when you design a ‘Passive’ or ‘Active’ crossover for a specific speaker you are attempting to achieve the best Sound Power possible. Generic crossovers have their place but recognize that without sophisticated anechoic chambers and very specialized measuring tools getting the ‘on and off' axis as smooth as possible with the various drivers and speaker cabinets out there is not an easy task.

The Bryston BAX-1 Active Electronic Crossover on the other hand is designed with a specific Bryston speaker in mind (Model T, Middle T and Mini T) We design and manufacture all our own drivers as well to facilitate optimizing the sound power. The Model T has different software than the Middle T and the Mini T has different software again. The reason for that is we put each of the Model T's in our anechoic camber and we make over 300 measurements but vertically and horizontally around the speaker and adjust the software to provide as accurate as possible the best ‘Sound Power’ for the specific Model T speaker.

Hope this helps explain it a bit.

Sorry this went on a bit longer than I planned.

james

Last edited by James Tanner - Bryston; 09-10-2018 at 01:58 PM.
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  #12  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:09 PM
Soundmig Soundmig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Tanner - Bryston View Post
Generic Active Crossovers vs Bryston BAX-1 Crossover

Hi Folks,

The above comments on the Bryston BAX-1 Active Crossover has motivated me to write this short explanation.

Can the Bryston BAX-1 Electronic Crossover be used with other active or passive loudspeakers? The short answer is ‘NO’ due to a very critical design factor regarding how ‘loudspeaker drivers’ and ‘passive or active crossovers’ interrelate with one another.

Generic active electronic crossovers provide the customer with a 'generic' approach to speaker adjustments. By that I mean you can choose the slope and the crossover point and sometimes the Q but they do not take into account the ‘Sound Power’ or total radiated energy of the speaker. ‘Sound Power’ is the result of the loudspeakers radiation pattern into the listening room.

The two most critical parts of any loudspeaker system choice is the listening ‘Room’ and the loudspeakers ‘Sound Power’. Recognizing how the room imposes its boundaries (floor, ceiling, walls) on the speaker and how that speaker radiates its energy (polar response) into a specific room is critical to the understanding of the overall performance of any loudspeaker.

DIRECT and RELECTED SOUND:
When you are listening to a loudspeaker in a room you are always listening to a balance between the ‘Direct Sound’ and the ‘Reflected Sound’ from the boundaries of the room – this is referred to as the ‘Sound Power.’ It is that balance between direct and reflected energy which changes depending on the frequency radiation pattern (polar response) of the given speaker and the boundaries of the room the speaker is placed in. Dipoles, Bipolar, Omnipoles, Direct Radiators, Horns etc. all behave differently due to their specific radiation patterns and therefore exhibit different power responses in any specific room.

The ‘direct sound’ is the sound radiating from the front of the loudspeaker and the ‘reflected sound’ is all the sound your ears perceive after the sound waves have interacted with all the different boundaries in the room. It is important given real world conditions that the on axis response and the off axis frequency response of a loudspeaker be as uniform as possible. The smoother and more uniform the on and off axis polar response of the speaker the better the tonal balance between the direct sound and the reflected sound will be. In other words, the reflected sound will have the same overall tonal balance and sonic characteristics as the direct sound if ‘on and off’ polar response is smooth and even.

CROSSOVERS:
So when you design a ‘Passive’ or ‘Active’ crossover for a specific speaker you are attempting to achieve the best Sound Power possible. Generic crossovers have their place but recognize that without sophisticated anechoic chambers and very specialized measuring tools getting the ‘on and off' axis as smooth as possible with the various drivers and speaker cabinets out there is not an easy task.

The Bryston BAX-1 Active Electronic Crossover on the other hand is designed with a specific Bryston speaker in mind (Model T, Middle T and Mini T) We design and manufacture all our own drivers as well to facilitate optimizing the sound power. The Model T has different software than the Middle T and the Mini T has different software again. The reason for that is we put each of the Model T's in our anechoic camber and we make over 300 measurements but vertically and horizontally around the speaker and adjust the software to provide as accurate as possible the best ‘Sound Power’ for the specific Model T speaker.

Hope this helps explain it a bit.

Sorry this went on a bit longer than I planned.

james
James ... I agree with what you have to say, but I think you underestimate the products that are out there (actually you problably know about all of them) and the DIYer's that use them. Available speaker controllers control far more than crossover slope, frequency and Q. Also, Acoustic measurement tools available to the hobbyist are far more sophisticated than they were a few years ago ... AND a person designing his/her speaker for his/her room has the ability to tune a large number of parameters specifically to the room and even the listening position.... That having been said, I have yet to hear a digital speaker controller (fancy x-over) that I liked the sound of above say 200 Hz. I have a feeling that the Bryston will be a different story as you guys make great sounding gear I understand and respect your decision to NOT give the consumer control over such a device as the BAX-1, but ... there are a lot of very talented and knowledgable people out there making some great sounding speakers at home - much to their spouse's shagrin A Bryston quality digital speaker controller would be interesting to play with - although many of us DIYers may not fork over the coin (just being realistic). BTW - love the Bryston gear and even have a 10B-LR personally - which does a great job in my main system dividing frequencies between my mid-bass drivers and tweeters
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  #13  
Old 09-10-2018, 06:27 PM
James Tanner - Bryston James Tanner - Bryston is offline
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Hi Soundmig,

Thank you for your kind comments - much appreciated.

The problem is that these measuring systems and using gating techniques etc. are fine for nearfield direct on and off axis measurements but they can not measure the reflected energy with anywhere near he same accuracy as an anechoic chamber.

And the number of measurements necessary to fully understand the sound power and the adjustments needed to be made can be overwhelming.

james
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  #14  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:51 PM
Soundmig Soundmig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Tanner - Bryston View Post
Hi Soundmig,

Thank you for your kind comments - much appreciated.

The problem is that these measuring systems and using gating techniques etc. are fine for nearfield direct on and off axis measurements but they can not measure the reflected energy with anywhere near he same accuracy as an anechoic chamber.

And the number of measurements necessary to fully understand the sound power and the adjustments needed to be made can be overwhelming.

james
Must be exhausting
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  #15  
Old 09-11-2018, 06:42 AM
James Tanner - Bryston James Tanner - Bryston is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundmig View Post
Must be exhausting
Hi

Yes it is very time consuming - can take 100 hours or more per speaker to dial it in and then there are the blind listening tests after the the fact to ensure which 'family of curves' is preferred.

james
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  #16  
Old 09-11-2018, 06:51 AM
James Tanner - Bryston James Tanner - Bryston is offline
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What are the 'Family of Curves"?

The family of curves is made up of amplitude response measurements taken in a sphere around the speaker in an anechoic environment. The performance you hear in your room is a summation of this family of curves in varying degrees of weighting.

In the design of each Bryston speaker we begin with anywhere from 120 to 300 measurements depending on the size of the speaker. From there each curve is considered both individually and as groups with particular algorithms applied to each curve in the group and then each group against the whole.

From this collection of measurements we published the Bryston Listening Window and Sound Power curves for each product.

james

PS - I sent Ivan a pic of a sample of this measurement so he can post it.
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  #17  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:43 AM
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Family of Curves
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Family of Curves.pdf (2.01 MB, 37 views)
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Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A250 AMPS, C3850 PRE-AMP, DP950 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC950 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-58 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO, FORTRESS SEATING, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1/D1 STACK, G01X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1 CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Bryston/Esoteric System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E650 INTEGRATED, DP560 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WIREWORLD GOLD CABLES
Bryston Active System: BP26 PRE-AMP, MPS2 POWER SUPPLY, BAX-1 CROSSOVER, BDA-3 DAC, BDP-3 PLAYER, BCD-3 CD PLAYER, BIT15(2), MODEL T ACTIVE SPEAKERS, 21B3 CUBED AMPS, SILENZIO, TARGET RACK, WIREWORLD SILVER CABLES

On Deck: Accuphase E-800 inbound...
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  #18  
Old 09-11-2018, 03:14 PM
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The First wave of Electronics has arrived.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_7762.JPG (253.9 KB, 205 views)
__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A250 AMPS, C3850 PRE-AMP, DP950 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC950 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-58 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO, FORTRESS SEATING, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1/D1 STACK, G01X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1 CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Bryston/Esoteric System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E650 INTEGRATED, DP560 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WIREWORLD GOLD CABLES
Bryston Active System: BP26 PRE-AMP, MPS2 POWER SUPPLY, BAX-1 CROSSOVER, BDA-3 DAC, BDP-3 PLAYER, BCD-3 CD PLAYER, BIT15(2), MODEL T ACTIVE SPEAKERS, 21B3 CUBED AMPS, SILENZIO, TARGET RACK, WIREWORLD SILVER CABLES

On Deck: Accuphase E-800 inbound...
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  #19  
Old 09-11-2018, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterlu View Post
The First wave of Electronics has arrived.

As Flounder, from Animal House, would say... "OH BOY IS THIS GREAT"!
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:57 PM
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^^^

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