Best TT under 20k ?

[Tonepub]

Originally Posted by jprice

I really can't believe that we are discussing turntables that cost Twenty Thousand Dollars like they are no big deal - My gosh, I remember when I bought my first turntable - a Garrard type A for $125.00 and a Shure cartridge for $17.00 and, golly was I proud.

I just shopped for a week to buy a new Honda for my daughter and it cost less than $20,000. Heck I bought my first house for under $20,000 and it probably had a twenty year mortgage.

I think I worked the first four years out of college for about $20,000 - total for all four years!

And here we are - talking about $20,000 turntables and that is probably without a decent cartridge - which may be another $5,000 or so.

Am I the only one here that thinks that $20,000 is a hell of a lot of money?

I couldn't agree with you more, and as I said earlier, when you get to this price point, it's pretty tough if not impossible to make a BAD choice.

20k is a lot of money. I paid $145k for my house 9 years ago!

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by BlueChiaro

It's a ton of dough. Maybe I should sell mine and buy something practical...like a nice dining room set I'd use twice a year...nah!

Enjoying AA on my DROIDX

That would be a perfect place to do the set up on your next $20k turntable.

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by jprice

I really can't believe that we are discussing turntables that cost Twenty Thousand Dollars like they are no big deal - My gosh, I remember when I bought my first turntable - a Garrard type A for $125.00 and a Shure cartridge for $17.00 and, golly was I proud.

I just shopped for a week to buy a new Honda for my daughter and it cost less than $20,000. Heck I bought my first house for under $20,000 and it probably had a twenty year mortgage.

I think I worked the first four years out of college for about $20,000 - total for all four years!

And here we are - talking about $20,000 turntables and that is probably without a decent cartridge - which may be another $5,000 or so.

Am I the only one here that thinks that $20,000 is a hell of a lot of money?

Julian,

I think that we all think 20k is a lot of money for a TT ( BTW my question was including a cart, but that does not change much ).
But it is much more money for me, who has around 200 vinyls, than for you who has 14000 vinyls if I remember correctly your signature !
Your vinyl collection costs 70000 dollars at only 5 dollars for one record.
20000 dollars to play them does not sound horrible to me.
But I don't want to calculate the price of playing one record in my case !
But each and everyone of my records give me an intense pleasure.
I don't get any pleasure if I buy a 20k watch.
I also think that at this level, improvements are very small and I'm not 100% sure that they will be satisfying compared to my actual set up.
My combo costs around 6000 euros, with the accessories I bought for it ( Ginkgo platfform, TT weights outer ring....). Spending 16000 euros for a new combo, will probably add just minor improvements for this 10000 euros more.
It is true that we don't get as much for our money from a TT than for amps and especially for speakers. If I spend 10k more than my speakers price at PMC, I will be rewarded much more, that's for sure.
To go with Stephen, my previous LP12 set up cost me around 1000 euros with a new cart. My actual rig is slightly better. Not night and day. And I preferred the bloom of my LP12, although all around I'm happier with the better authority and precision of the Clearaudio. I would expect a big improvement for this new 16k euros set up, but indeed, deep inside I think that I will get the same kind of improvement than with my previous upgrade.

So you're right Julian, 20k for a TT rig is probably too much regarding my set up, and even besides any comparison.
BTW, Alberto and Stephen have lighted something in me and I want now to try other tube amps in my system, and get different colors of sound depending on my mood / records/ time of the day and son on.
My dream would be to have different systems ( living in an audio store actually) but my home does not allow that. So I'm thinking about multiple systems in the same room instead.
I will try some SET amps on my speakers, to see how they sound.
If I like the sound, I will keep them connected to the C1000, as for my 2301's.
And I will just have to change the speaker cables on the speakers to switch amps. So 20k will be just enough to buy a set of high end SET amps !
You're right once again.
We are completely nuts.
But you know what. My wife is jealous. She tells me all the time that she would like to be passionate for something as I am with audio.
As Dan would say, this is a great hobby ! Expensive for sure, but truly rewarding for each day of our life.
Cheers,

[two dot]

Jerome,

I think that you hit the nail on the head with the sentence about your wife...

We are very lucky to have the passion that we do... many people go through this life without such a passion... I feel for them.

Right now I am sitting in my favorite chair, listening to an old MONO recording of Louis Armstrong, sipping a Scotch and couldn't be happier...

Cheers,

Stephen

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by jprice

I really can't believe that we are discussing turntables that cost Twenty Thousand Dollars like they are no big deal - My gosh, I remember when I bought my first turntable - a Garrard type A for $125.00 and a Shure cartridge for $17.00 and, golly was I proud.

Am I the only one here that thinks that $20,000 is a hell of a lot of money?

Julian.......$20K is a serious chunk of change. I just parted with $25K in less than 45 days for two source components and an amplifier, none of which I really "needed". I would love to have a $20K turntable rig, but with my 150 albums it is hard to justify that expense no matter what fuzzy logic I apply to the ploy. That doesn't stop my lust for a new turntable rig, but for now it has held me in check.

Your point is well taken, but it made me think back to the list you once posted of the speakers that have come and gone from your systems. That wasn't chump change, either.

[cmalak]

Originally Posted by C220MC275

Julian,

I think that we all think 20k is a lot of money for a TT ( BTW my question was including a cart, but that does not change much ).
But it is much more money for me, who has around 200 vinyls, than for you who has 14000 vinyls if I remember correctly your signature !
Your vinyl collection costs 70000 dollars at only 5 dollars for one record.
20000 dollars to play them does not sound horrible to me.
But I don't want to calculate the price of playing one record in my case !
But each and everyone of my records give me an intense pleasure.
I don't get any pleasure if I buy a 20k watch.
I also think that at this level, improvements are very small and I'm not 100% sure that they will be satisfying compared to my actual set up.
My combo costs around 6000 euros, with the accessories I bought for it ( Ginkgo platfform, TT weights outer ring....). Spending 16000 euros for a new combo, will probably add just minor improvements for this 10000 euros more.
It is true that we don't get as much for our money from a TT than for amps and especially for speakers. If I spend 10k more than my speakers price at PMC, I will be rewarded much more, that's for sure.
To go with Stephen, my previous LP12 set up cost me around 1000 euros with a new cart. My actual rig is slightly better. Not night and day. And I preferred the bloom of my LP12, although all around I'm happier with the better authority and precision of the Clearaudio. I would expect a big improvement for this new 16k euros set up, but indeed, deep inside I think that I will get the same kind of improvement than with my previous upgrade.

So you're right Julian, 20k for a TT rig is probably too much regarding my set up, and even besides any comparison.
BTW, Alberto and Stephen have lighted something in me and I want now to try other tube amps in my system, and get different colors of sound depending on my mood / records/ time of the day and son on.
My dream would be to have different systems ( living in an audio store actually) but my home does not allow that. So I'm thinking about multiple systems in the same room instead.
I will try some SET amps on my speakers, to see how they sound.
If I like the sound, I will keep them connected to the C1000, as for my 2301's.
And I will just have to change the speaker cables on the speakers to switch amps. So 20k will be just enough to buy a set of high end SET amps !
You're right once again.
We are completely nuts.
But you know what. My wife is jealous. She tells me all the time that she would like to be passionate for something as I am with audio.
As Dan would say, this is a great hobby ! Expensive for sure, but truly rewarding for each day of our life.
Cheers,

Jerome...sorry to sidetrack the discussion, but I will answer your question in Alberto's thread about why you need more than 10wpc SET amp since you almost never go over 3W on your MC2301s with your PMC speakers. You should be careful mating low watt SET amps with your PMCs for the following reasons (at least please try to audition with your speakers before buying):

1) tube amps in general do not like to see variations in impedance in the speaker load that they are partnered to. When you mate a high-powered tube amp (like your MC2301s), they usually also have overbuilt power supplies and when they see a low impedance at some point in the frequency band, they are still capable of delivering enough current so you will not experience any attenuation in that region of the frequency band where the amp is especially a tough load. Low watt SET amps will be much less capable of doing this. So if your PMCs have points in the frequency curve where they dip below 4ohms, the SET amp will not be able to deliver enough current (unless they have overbuilt power supplies) to meet the current demands at that point in the pass band, causing attenuation. Your PMC amps are a nominal 4ohm load, but they could easily dip below that at any point in the frequency band. Let's say they dip down to 3ohms or below at 80Hz (or even worse they dip below 3ohms and there is also a significant negative phase angle combo with that dip in impedance), then your SET amp will have to deliver current beyond its ability to deliver at that point. So what happens? The bass is attenuated and your speakers will sound thin and tipped up, meaning there is a suck out of bass info at 80Hz, and the speakers will have more midrange and treble info coming through than mid-bass, sounding thin.
2) You are right that your speakers are 89dB and Alberto's are 90dB but remember when you think about speakers sensitivity, and matching amps power rating to the speaker's sensitivity, we are talking about the speaker-amp match in the "power" delivery mode which is primarily trying to get at how loud an amp can drive its matching speaker. So you may not need a lot of watts (think power delivery) to drive your PMCs in a moderate sized room, but you may still have a shift in tonal balance (as described above) because of current delivery limitations of SET amps (think current delivery mode).
3) In power delivery mode, what the extra watts give you is dynamic headroom. An SET amp will most likely sound lifeless or dull because of a lack of dynamic range with your speakers.

In general when you think about tube amps, especially low watt SET tube amps, you want to partner them with 8ohm speakers that have relatively flat impedance across the frequency band and preferably that don't dip below 6ohms.

I just think if you are going down the SET amp route you should have an appropriate speaker match to get what the SET amps have to offer.

Just my 2c worth. Sorry to derail this discussion but I just realized I never answered your question in Albertos thread and since you mentioned wanting to explore SET amps here again, I thought I would answer. I hope this helps.

Cyril

[Tonepub]

I agree with Cyril on the SET thing. I had a couple of Wavac amps that were a lot of fun with 90db speakers for a while, they possessed an extraordinary amount of inner detail which was really captivating, but once I got an amplifier with high power and refinement, there was no looking back.

Now, every time I listen to small amps they are a ton of fun, but with the dynamic component and perhaps the control of the speakers that a small amp can't provide, I just can't do it anymore.

But like a certain kind of car or girlfriend, the SET thing is definitely worth the experience...

[Jerome W]

Jeff,
Cyril, thanks a lot for your advices. I understand. Yes we derive a bit from the TT original question but that's ok for me !!
The Greek Shindo importer, adviced me these PP monoblocks, Corton Charlemagne EL34 at 25 W per channel, class A :
Shindo Labs Amplification
He told me that their sound is really special.
I think that the power should be adequate for listening at moderate volumes no ?

[cmalak]

Jerome...unfortunately no way of telling until you try them. Is there a way for you to see if there is anyone in Paris who owns these amps through a local forum that you can ask if they would be willing to bring the amp over to your place so you can audition? If not, you will have to trust the importer if he thinks the amps can adequately drive the speakers. There are no detailed specs on the web site link you posted beyond 25wpc class A. The other way to do it Jerome is if you have travel plans (either personal or business) that may take you to a country where you can audition the Shindo amps either with your PMC speakers, or speakers with similar specs, then you can test it out for yourself. Again, not ideal, but maybe an option. Ultimately, if you think there is a good resale value in france for Shindo products, you can always buy and if they are not what you are looking for resell for hopefully a minimal loss. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by cmalak

Jerome...unfortunately no way of telling until you try them. Is there a way for you to see if there is anyone in Paris who owns these amps through a local forum that you can ask if they would be willing to bring the amp over to your place so you can audition? If not, you will have to trust the importer if he thinks the amps can adequately drive the speakers. There are no detailed specs on the web site link you posted beyond 25wpc class A. The other way to do it Jerome is if you have travel plans (either personal or business) that may take you to a country where you can audition the Shindo amps either with your PMC speakers, or speakers with similar specs, then you can test it out for yourself. Again, not ideal, but maybe an option. Ultimately, if you think there is a good resale value in france for Shindo products, you can always buy and if they are not what you are looking for resell for hopefully a minimal loss. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Thank you Cyril, all good advices !
I will try to hear them somewhere but that won't be easy.
Yes resale value is very fair for Shindo gear in France, they are highly sought after, so this could be an option too : sell them if they don't satisfy me..,.