Best TT under 20k ?

[Tonepub]

Again, you aren't paying attention. I did not say the differences between the AVID, SG and SME were huge, I said (repeatedly) that they were all excellent tables, and I know both here and elsewhere that I've said purchasing any of these three tables was not a bad move.

However, on my system, something pretty major is missing from the sound of a VPI Classic or a Clearaudio Concept. Big dynamics, big weight and big air/soundstage to the presentation.

And I don't feel that the difference between a $1500 table and a $20k table is a "steep rate of diminishing returns" either. One more example of your not paying attention. We never use this terminology in our editorial content and we've only used the word "Best" once in six years (and almost 400 product reviews) I defy you to find any other publication that has shown that level of restraint.

Sorry, but a $500 table doesn't get the job done for me anymore. It doesn't mean I can't write about it and describe it in the context of other $300 - $1000 turntables, because that's my job. I'm not motivated or captivated (who's using the big, descriptive words now?) by a budget table.

What I fail to understand is the passive/aggressive analysis. First you defend the meticulous setup of your SME20, then you come full circle and say "whatever moves me is enough."

At least I've picked a spot.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by tonepub

Again, you aren't paying attention. I did not say the differences between the AVID, SG and SME were huge, I said (repeatedly) that they were all excellent tables, and I know both here and elsewhere that I've said purchasing any of these three tables was not a bad move.

However, on my system, something pretty major is missing from the sound of a VPI Classic or a Clearaudio Concept. Big dynamics, big weight and big air/soundstage to the presentation.

And I don't feel that the difference between a $1500 table and a $20k table is a "steep rate of diminishing returns" either. One more example of your not paying attention. We never use this terminology in our editorial content and we've only used the word "Best" once in six years (and almost 400 product reviews) I defy you to find any other publication that has shown that level of restraint.

Sorry, but a $500 table doesn't get the job done for me anymore. It doesn't mean I can't write about it and describe it in the context of other $300 - $1000 turntables, because that's my job. I'm not motivated or captivated (who's using the big, descriptive words now?) by a budget table.

What I fail to understand is the passive/aggressive analysis. First you defend the meticulous setup of your SME20, then you come full circle and say "whatever moves me is enough."

At least I've picked a spot.

Jeff, it's your job and your livelihood to obtain gear for reviews, review it, collect advertisement fees, get professional discount on gear if you decide to keep it, maintain relationships and protect reputations of your advertisers, etc... It's a lot of work. It's only a hobby for me. I can't seem to pay attention anyways. So what's the point of trying to prove a point? You win! Enjoy your Big system!

[JemHadar]

Originally Posted by cmalak

Jacques...what phono amp will you be using with either table and the Benz cart?

I will use the phono stage of the McIntosh C1000 (solid state version)...if I go ahead with this adventure.

...the voice of reason has started a counter offensive...still having a hard time justifying the expense.

In the meantime I bought a humble Grado Reference Signature 1 MM for my SME III equiped vintage Thorens 126 mk3...and the experience is very satisfying.

...at the end of the day...it is all about the music

THX

[cmalak]

Originally Posted by Jem666

I will use the phono stage of the McIntosh C1000 (solid state version)

THX

Got it. Thx

[Jerome W]

Sorry to go back on this but I can't remain silent.

The discussion between Jeff and Serge shows something very important, which should not be discussed in AA imo.
To me, you 're both right.
But the problem comes from this old story of "diminishing returns".
What is a "good value" in audio ?
No answer to that question.
High End audio is a Luxury : per se , it is not necessary.
We can know what time it is just by looking at our cell phone. Still, many people buy old fashioned mechanical watches, while they could just buy a Swatch.
Driving from point A to point B, especially in the US where speed limit is low and fines are high, does not need a Ferrari. You can do the same in any car.

What we get for our money, and the impression of satisfaction towards the amount spent, is only a PERSONAL and STRICTLY INDIVIDUAL feeling.
Serge feels that high end TTs don't give improvements compared to the price paid, relative to budget TTs. And Jeff does not agree. Period. There is no discussion possible on this.

When I bought my Clearaudio, and added all the accessories ( Gingko platform, TT weights outer ring....), the total cost was around 5500 euros.
I had the feeling that it was giving me around 90 % of what the LP12SE costing 16000 euros gives to my friend. So I thought " I'm smarter. Better value. Can use this money elsewhere".
Now guess what ? for some mysterious reason ( maybe I'm a bit richer, maybe only high end audio really excites me....) , I have the feeling that these 10 % left of quality have a justified value. Go figure !
Of course, it drives my wife crazy, and what she tells me looks closely like what Serge said
And I'm going deeper into this analog hole because I just received my ARC PHONO 2 : 10300 euros ! If I buy the Avid set up I have in my mind, at 15000 euros, I will have an analog set up costing 25000 euros

Serge, you may consider that I'm nuts and that a Technics perfectly set-up would give me 95 % of this for no more than 2 or 3k. I will not judge you and argue. You think the same as my wife and I won't argue with her either !

[jwhite613]

Jerome... Smart move by not arguing with the wife, you always lose!

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by jwhite613

Jerome... Smart move by not arguing with the wife, you always lose!

Reminds me of some of the lines in that great Chris Rock show on HBO "Never Scared"!

I enjoyed reading this thread. I ventured back into analogue last summer picking up a used Basis 2001 table with RB301 tonearm, then upgraded to Basis Vector 4. Kurt Doslu at Echo Audio in Portland set up my table/arm/cartridge each time, and I bet next to AJ Conti setting up his own table, my Basis was totally dialed and sounded great. I got the upgrade bug and landed a great deal on a Clearaudio Innovation Wood and a Graham Phantom II B44 tonearm with Benz LP-S cartridge. Everything got bigger and better, and the pitch/speed stability and grip on each note with no smearing was worth the upgrade. Now I'm adding a Schick 12" tonearm with Miyajima Premium Mono BE cartridge as a second arm so will get to enjoy mono recordings. I also lucked out and was able to buy a modified vintage table from Atma-Sphere (Empire 208) with a Triplanar arm, and I'll put a Soundsmith Ebony Voice cartridge on it. Experiencing different analogue rigs is fun, and I like the mechanical aspect of it (I like mechanical watches and I still shoot in film...medium format). But most importantly at the end of the day, there is an enjoyment I get every day from listening to vinyl on a good system that is unrivaled, no matter which table I might have in my system. And now my kids (8, 12, 14) are turned onto vinyl so they will inherit this stuff one day and I'll pass the torch.

[cmalak]

dpod4...welcome to AA . Very nice analog rigs you have there. Tell us about the rest of your system.

[Tonepub]

Hi Dpod...

Kurt is an excellent TT setup guy and a good friend of mine. Let's get together and have a beer sometime.