Magico S5 vs Infinity IRS speakers

Hi guys, I was intrigued by Alan Sircom's comment in his Hifi Plus review of the S5's "The only ugly truth about its performance is if you are clinging on to a pair of nine-foot- tall, cost as much as a house loudspeaker designs from the 1980s or 1990s, they just met their match.". Then I thought back to my own auditions of the S5's. Yes they do sound boxless, image great and have thunderous, concert level bass like I remember hearing with the IRS-V's. No, they don't have the phenomenal "reach out and touch it" imaging of the IRS-V, but ok...the IRS-V's were $60kUS back in 1991. Perhaps a fairer comparison would be the IRS-Beta's? Arnie himself admitted they got very close to the sound of the IRS-V's. Infinity, like Magico built some of the best loudspeakers in the world. The S5's have the advantage of over 20 years of materials and technological development, the mighty IRS the advantage of the sheer presence and scale of a full size line source. Do you reckon the S5's stack up against the classic IRS-Beta's, or even approach the great IRS-V's?

Cheers,
David

[2fastdriving]

Wow, if they are that good, maybe I bought the wrong speakers! Aren't they the same price as Sasha's?

Looking forward to hearing all kinds of stuff at RMAF.

[GaryProtein]

The successor to the Infinity IRS-V is the Genesis 1. The present model, the 1.2 will set you back $300k MSRP in Brazilian Rosewood or $350k in black carbon fiber. Prices have really gone up in recent years.

Gary Koh, who owns Genesis Advanced Technologies actually has a hard time showing them at audio shows because he has said he can't get a room that satisfies him so he shows smaller models. He most recently showed the Genesis 1.2 at the Hong Kong show.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7FkdO6PjLc[/ame]

[Charles]

Originally Posted by GaryProtein

The successor to the Infinity IRS-V is the Genesis 1. The present model, the 1.2 will set you back $300k MSRP in Brazilian Rosewood or $350k in black carbon fiber. Prices have really gone up in recent years.

Gary Koh, who owns Genesis Advanced Technologies actually has a hard time showing them at audio shows because he has said he can't get a room that satisfies him so he shows smaller models. He most recently showed the Genesis 1.2 at the Hong Kong show.

I owned a Genesis II system with mono sub amps for each subwoofer for about 10 years. The midrange ribbons wore out and I traded them. I can't say that I liked them nearly as much as my current speakers but they were really fine sounding speakers. The main problem was too much low bass compared to upper bass causing some heaviness to creep in on the male voices. I was never able to rid the system of this problem. Also the midrange could sound edgy at times when the system was pushed. But they made music like few speakers could. It's simply not true that newer designs are always better than older ones. The Gen II is probably the equivalent of the IRS Beta.

Originally Posted by Charles

I owned a Genesis II system with mono sub amps for each subwoofer for about 10 years. The midrange ribbons wore out and I traded them. I can't say that I liked them nearly as much as my current speakers but they were really fine sounding speakers. The main problem was too much low bass compared to upper bass causing some heaviness to creep in on the male voices. I was never able to rid the system of this problem. Also the midrange could sound edgy at times when the system was pushed. But they made music like few speakers could. It's simply not true that newer designs are always better than older ones. The Gen II is probably the equivalent of the IRS Beta.

Thanks for your insight Charles. Yes I certainly agree newer speakers aren't always better than older designs. The IRS-V's are still the best speakers i've ever heard, but they require a large room of optimal dimensions to get the most out of them. Still I'm curious how the S5's, the new kid on the block, stack up against these old legends?

[2fastdriving]

Jeez... I know Gary Koh and I still have never heard these things. I need to visit his shop. He's in the pnw audio society and so am I... Kinda...

[jazzman]

I cannot comment on the IRS Beta, but I still have a pair of Infinity IRS Epsilon in my garage (my first serious speakers, before many others, I still have an emotional attachment, never wanted to sell them...): same EMIT, EMIM and L-EMIM drivers but a servo controlled single bass driver.
I took the IRS out a few years back, connected them to my Gryphon Antileon and compared to the evolution acoustic MM3 I had at the time. I am sorry, but modern speakers are in fact much better: better defined bass, more transparency, etc. The difference was shocking.
Since then I replaced the MM3 with a pair of Magico Q1 (temporary speaker, waiting for my Ultimate): going from a 600lbs monster to small monitors. As surprising as it can be for most of us thinking "bigger= better", I enjoy more the sound of the Q1, on the music I listen (70% Jazz + voices, J.S. Bach and church music), and I end up therefore listening much more to music. In short: More transparency, more faithful tones, more precise imaging, less bass extension.
And yes, I would take a pair of S5 over a Sasha anytime. Would even take it against a pair of Alexia. They are that good, even if I personally prefer the Q3 over the S5.

Originally Posted by jazzman

I cannot comment on the IRS Beta, but I still have a pair of Infinity IRS Epsilon in my garage (my first serious speakers, before many others, I still have an emotional attachment, never wanted to sell them...): same EMIT, EMIM and L-EMIM drivers but a servo controlled single bass driver.
I took the IRS out a few years back, connected them to my Gryphon Antileon and compared to the evolution acoustic MM3 I had at the time. I am sorry, but modern speakers are in fact much better: better defined bass, more transparency, etc. The difference was shocking.
Since then I replaced the MM3 with a pair of Magico Q1 (temporary speaker, waiting for my Ultimate): going from a 600lbs monster to small monitors. As surprising as it can be for most of us thinking "bigger= better", I enjoy more the sound of the Q1, on the music I listen (70% Jazz + voices, J.S. Bach and church music), and I end up therefore listening much more to music. In short: More transparency, more faithful tones, more precise imaging, less bass extension.
And yes, I would take a pair of S5 over a Sasha anytime. Would even take it against a pair of Alexia. They are that good, even if I personally prefer the Q3 over the S5.

Hi Jazz, you provided a fairly compelling picture of how speaker development has evolved from the classic IRS-Epsilon and earlier predecessors such as the IRS-Beta, from which many of it's drivers evolved. I'm not surprised your Evolution Acoustics MM3's were dramatically better taking into account their price, but of course as you found out with the Q1's, the size or cost of a speaker tells little about how musically satisfying it is.

For me, I liked the overall balance, smoothness and excitement the S5's offer. To my ears they were every bit as coherent as the Q3's and sounded a bit warmer. They are like a higher end version of an IRS-Gamma that just happens to kick the Renaissance 90's, IRS-Sigma & IRS-Epsilon's butt!!

ps: I plan to place my S5's on Stillpoints Ultra 5's with the Ultra bases which, knowing how good the Ultra 5's are, should lift the S5's to the same level as the Q3 (since they are close already)..

[jazzman]

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

Hi Jazz, you provided a fairly compelling picture of how speaker development has evolved from the classic IRS-Epsilon and earlier predecessors such as the IRS-Beta, from which many of it's drivers evolved. I'm not surprised your Evolution Acoustics MM3's were dramatically better taking into account their price, but of course as you found out with the Q1's, the size or cost of a speaker tells little about how musically satisfying it is.

For me, I liked the overall balance, smoothness and excitement the S5's offer. To my ears they were every bit as coherent as the Q3's and sounded a bit warmer. They are like a higher end version of an IRS-Gamma that just happens to kick the Renaissance 90's, IRS-Sigma & IRS-Epsilon's butt!!

ps: I plan to place my S5's on Stillpoints Ultra 5's with the Ultra bases which, knowing how good the Ultra 5's are, should lift the S5's to the same level as the Q3 (since they are close already)..

Even if I prefer it, I wouldn't say that the Q3 is a better speaker than the S5.
S5 is more accessible, more tolerant to the source, in the sense that it is a bit warmer, with a very slight bass hump. It is also very transparent, but not as much as the Q3. For me, it is targeting the typical Wilson buyer, as it does everything a sasha would do.... better, and without being as "revolutionary" as the Q3.

Q3 require a learning curve, like all Q series. You need to reeducate your ears, because their linearity, transparency and impulse response is better than anything else on the market. Response is perfectly flat and extremely transparent (because of a more inert cabinet construction and more expensive drivers and XO). On very good recording and with very good upstream components, no speaker it its price range beats it. On poor recording or with average upstream components... you hear it, because they are "brutally honest" (vs. "honest" for the S5 and "pleasing" for the Sonus Faber).
If I would listen to a lot of pop/rock, I would buy the S5. For Jazz (which is my priority), I prefer the Q3. You really cannot go wrong with any of them.

I haven't heard the S5 and Q3 in the same room with the same equipment. But I have at home S1 and Q1 in same room, fully treated, so I had the opportunity to compare for several hours, with different upstream components. S1 is an amazing value for money. But cost put aside, I would take the Q1 any day.

Originally Posted by jazzman

Even if I prefer it, I wouldn't say that the Q3 is a better speaker than the S5.
S5 is more accessible, more tolerant to the source, in the sense that it is a bit warmer, with a very slight bass hump. It is also very transparent, but not as much as the Q3. For me, it is targeting the typical Wilson buyer, as it does everything a sasha would do.... better, and without being as "revolutionary" as the Q3.

Q3 require a learning curve, like all Q series. You need to reeducate your ears, because their linearity, transparency and impulse response is better than anything else on the market. Response is perfectly flat and extremely transparent (because of a more inert cabinet construction and more expensive drivers and XO). On very good recording and with very good upstream components, no speaker it its price range beats it. On poor recording or with average upstream components... you hear it, because they are "brutally honest" (vs. "honest" for the S5 and "pleasing" for the Sonus Faber).
If I would listen to a lot of pop/rock, I would buy the S5. For Jazz (which is my priority), I prefer the Q3. You really cannot go wrong with any of them.

I haven't heard the S5 and Q3 in the same room with the same equipment. But I have at home S1 and Q1 in same room, fully treated, so I had the opportunity to compare for several hours, with different upstream components. S1 is an amazing value for money. But cost put aside, I would take the Q1 any day.

Jazz, you've been reading Alan Sircom's review All your comments reflect my own listening impressions of the S5's. They are a bit more laid back, very smooth, warm and very well balanced and coherent. They scale brilliantly from the lowest kick drums to the most shimmering highs and throw off a huge sound stage. I agree it is more tolerant of average recordings. The S5's are transparent sounding, but too much transparency can be a bad thing. You also want meat on the bones.

As for the comparison between the S1 & Q1, the Q1 is twice the price of the S1 so it's a bit like a senior beating up a freshman. Hardly a fair comparison! But the S5 vs Q3, now that's a fair fight But as I mentioned in my earlier comment, i'd rather pocket the $10k saving and put that into better isolation & bringing forward electronics upgrades. You have to keep your system balanced (and by that I don't mean using xlr cables) and focus on system synergy. That is the path to musical nirvana Hey, wasn't this thread comparing the S5's to the classic Infinity's?