Welcome to Caelin Gabriel

[bachrocks]

Thank you Caelin for your very fast answer. The explanation is understandable to me, a layman, and I fear the physics in the patent application would not be.

I appreciate so much this precious opportunity to Q&A with you. As a relative newbie to audio, the issue of cables and conditioning has been vexing. There are so many products available--and some are so unreasonably expensive--that is is very difficult to put together a purchasing plan. However, my research over the past months has led me to Shunyata. I wrote in another thread that I especially liked that your company seemed engineering-driven and that your top-of-the-line products were relatively affordable.

Thank you too Masterlu. It was an unexpected pleasure to see Caelin become an AA member.

ron

[Copper1]

Welcome to AA Caelin.

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by BlueFox

Caelin,

I have two Python CX power cables with 20 amp connectors. I am looking at amp upgrades, and they use 15 amp connectors. Have you done any DTCD measurements of these cable with your 20-15 adapter? I am wondering if doing that would detract any benefit I get from upgrading the amps.

Thanks for your help, and I love your products.

bud

Hi BlueFox,

Thank you for using our products.

We designed the adapters specifically for dealers to use when loaning cables to customers. It is difficult for a dealer to inventory several different skews of cable products, especially C19 versions. For example, the adapters allow a dealer to loan out a Python C15 for use on a Hydra if he doesn't have a C19 version. The real world perceived degradation is minimal. However, we do not recommend using the adapters long term. It is preferable to use a cable designed for the component. High-end is about splitting hairs and getting that last 1% of performance, isn't it?

Yes, the adapters measurably degrad DTCD. But to be clear we can measure the difference between a 12" wire and a 13" wire. Any additional wire degrades DTCD and a connector with its wire to contact and contact to contact junctions certainly does so. But those are measurements that are roughly equivalent to the difference between .01% THD and .02% THD.

Understand?

cg

[BlueFox]

Got it. Thanks for the reply.

[Msegal]

Originally Posted by CGabriel

Thank you for the question. A five minute video, nor a marketing brochure cannot delve into the technicalities involved with the ZTron technology. So I would simply refer you to the pending international patents that are available online at the USPTO it you or your friend are looking for a physics level explanation.

However, I am not ducking your qusetion and will the give best answer without getting into the details described in the patents.

Your friend is correct, a constrained electromagnetic wave cannot be disassociated from its constituent parts - those being the E field (electric field) and the H field (magnetic field). What is described in the patent is a method to split the E wave and the H wave and carry them via separate conductors. However, the two fields are still coincident and conjoined. That means that they are still intertwined at a quantum level and each affects the other.

In the patent we say that the center conductor carries the majority of the current and therefore the preponderance of the H field while the second conductor that surrounds the center conductor carries little (about 70 times less) current and hence it predominates in the transmission of the E field.

The net effect is that the characteristic impedance is lowered by almost a factor of two, skin effect is reduced and dielectric polarization is minimized. For the audiophile, it simply means that the signal that exits the cable is closer to the source signal that enters the cable. That is what the video clearly demonstrates.

cg

I guess I would be the disbeliever in the act of separating the Electromagnetic field. Thanks for acknowledging and addressing my concern.

I currently use your new AV conditioner, Anaconda PC to the unit and Cobra PC's to my low power sources and preamp. I run Python PC directly to my amps. IC are all ZTron Python and SC is ZTron Anaconda. I have been VERY pleased at the benefits your products have brought to my sound system.

I read your explanation above a number of times. I will be honest, I am an MD and not a PHD so my training is not in electrical principles. I do have a keen interest in quantum physics and my arm chair knowledge is only that.

If I do understand what you wrote above, what is written on your website and what is stated in your video the ZTron principle separates the signal sending a smaller percentage of the signal around the opposite side of the insulator. I am not sure if this Is an inverted signal. The objective being to maintain polarity of the insulator to prevent or reduce depolarization/re polarization cycles and reduce interference and "ringing" in the cable. Additionally, the impedance is halved (?) and the skin effect is minimized.

I am assuming (a dangerous past time at best) from your above statement that the amount of magnetic signal, H field is disproportionately greater in the outside conductor(s). Anytime there is an electrical current is moving through a wire i understand that a magnetic field is produced.I have found many citations indicating that magnetic fields may be neutralized by balanced conductors but I have not found any corroboration to your above claim regarding the separation or reduction of them. I do understand a patent is pending.

You also discuss quantum intertwining of the EM wave. I am familiar with entanglement of photons if they are polarized through various techniques http://grad.physics.sunysb.edu/~amarch/ ( if this link is in violation of the rules please remove) and sent through a double slit grid. I have been searching the web high and low for citation for intertwining or entanglement of electrical signals through wire but I have been unable to find that as well.

I am only looking for understanding and not confrontation. Perhaps my paranoia stems from a good friend who continually espouses the double blind study results. He runs his $90K system with lamp cord and boasts his cable costs are well below $100. I do not subscribe to his ideas but would appreciate clarification. There are certainly no shortage of bogus designs, implementation and marketing of cables and power conditioners, not that I am accusing you or your company of this behavior. My concern is the use of unsubstantiated claims doing irreparable harm to the industry. Usually the snake oil dealers dwindle but their damage remains.

I thank you in advance for your participation in this forum, your commitment to research and development and manufacturing some of the best cables and power conditioners on the market.

Respectfully,

Mike Segal.

[bzr]

Mike, if your friend has 90k worth of advanced electronics, with "lamp chords", then why hasn't he got phillips/pioneer/onkyo/sanyo/sony. Please don't take offence, it's just something that is often overlooked, everyone has their poison, to a certain level....

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by Msegal

I guess I would be the disbeliever in the act of separating the Electromagnetic field. Thanks for acknowledging and addressing my concern.

I currently use your new AV conditioner, Anaconda PC to the unit and Cobra PC's to my low power sources and preamp. I run Python PC directly to my amps. IC are all ZTron Python and SC is ZTron Anaconda. I have been VERY pleased at the benefits your products have brought to my sound system.

I read your explanation above a number of times. I will be honest, I am an MD and not a PHD so my training is not in electrical principles. I do have a keen interest in quantum physics and my arm chair knowledge is only that.

Mike Segal.

Hello Mike,

Thank you for using our products.

Pardon me for parsing your post, but you have several questions which I will address individually. We share an interest in quantum physics, while I too am not a physicist, I do have an adequate understanding in the field. My specialty in the past several years is primarily in the materials science of conductors, semi-conductors and insulators.

Given the level of obvious thought that you put into this I would respectfully suggest that you read our patent application at the USPTO. It would clear up much of what you are concerned about. Some of you may not know that a change in patent law has occurred. Previously a pending patent application was not published to protect the intellectual property of the inventor. Now all patent applications are published.

QUOTE="Msegal;505206"]

If I do understand what you wrote above, what is written on your website and what is stated in your video the ZTron principle separates the signal sending a smaller percentage of the signal around the opposite side of the insulator. I am not sure if this Is an inverted signal. The objective being to maintain polarity of the insulator to prevent or reduce depolarization/re polarization cycles and reduce interference and "ringing" in the cable. Additionally, the impedance is halved (?) and the skin effect is minimized.

I am assuming (a dangerous past time at best) from your above statement that the amount of magnetic signal, H field is disproportionately greater in the outside conductor(s). Anytime there is an electrical current is moving through a wire i understand that a magnetic field is produced.I have found many citations indicating that magnetic fields may be neutralized by balanced conductors but I have not found any corroboration to your above claim regarding the separation or reduction of them. I do understand a patent is pending

Mike Segal.[/QUOTE]

First, the objective of the invention was to reduce dielectric polarization of the insulator that surrounds a conductor. I won't bore everyone with a dissertation on dielectric polarization - go to a wiki and read up on it. So this was the intent but the resulting invention also reduced skin effect and reduced characteristic impedance.

No the signal is not inverted, it is in (relative) phase with the signal and of (relative) equal potential. Dielectric polarization is an effect of the E field and not the H field, we are only concerned with electric field strength. The goal to create an equal potential on both sides of the conductor, thus preventing the dielectric from gaining a charge.

The patent contains references to the measurements that we made to substantiate our claim of reduced characteristic impedance.

QUOTE="Msegal;505206"]

You also discuss quantum intertwining of the EM wave. I am familiar with entanglement of photons if they are polarized through various techniques http://grad.physics.sunysb.edu/~amarch/ ( if this link is in violation of the rules please remove) and sent through a double slit grid. I have been searching the web high and low for citation for intertwining or entanglement of electrical signals through wire but I have been unable to find that as well.

Mike Segal.[/QUOTE]

I believe you are mixing concepts that I certainly didn't state or imply. I am familiar with quantum entanglement theory and would love to discuss it sometime but it has no relevance to the invention.

I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the invention so let me try to make it clear. The ZTron cable is actually composed of two conductors and a EFCC (electric field compensation circuit). There are two paths for the signal to travel. One path is simply a wire with no circuits or electronic parts involved. The second path surrounds the first and has the EFCC that minimizes the transmission of current (which is what generates the H wave). Each path has a E field and an H field component but the pathway in the second conductor is so minimal to say that it is relatively zero in comparison the the first.

Now, the conductors are coincident (one surrounds the other) and the signal traveling the two conductors is electromagnetically intertwined or conjoined. When we talk about the cable and the signal we are referring to it as a single entity but when you delve into the specifics there are two signal paths. This is too complicated and confusing to present in marketing materials. And we do say that anyone who wants to understand the specifics can simply read the patent app.

So you see there are no violations of physics going on here.

QUOTE="Msegal;505206"]

I am only looking for understanding and not confrontation. Perhaps my paranoia stems from a good friend who continually espouses the double blind study results. He runs his $90K system with lamp cord and boasts his cable costs are well below $100. I do not subscribe to his ideas but would appreciate clarification. There are certainly no shortage of bogus designs, implementation and marketing of cables and power conditioners, not that I am accusing you or your company of this behavior. My concern is the use of unsubstantiated claims doing irreparable harm to the industry. Usually the snake oil dealers dwindle but their damage remains.

QUOTE="Msegal;505206"]

I agree with you and that is why we publish more technical information about our products than many of those that I believe you are referring to.

cg

[Msegal]

Originally Posted by bzr

Mike, if your friend has 90k worth of advanced electronics, with "lamp chords", then why hasn't he got phillips/pioneer/onkyo/sanyo/sony. Please don't take offence, it's just something that is often overlooked, everyone has their poison, to a certain level....

It is interesting to experience his journey and compare it to mine. His system is not bad despite using multi stand 12 gauge parallel wire but it is missing much of the depth and detail. We have many similarities in out component choices and identical Focal Utopia III Scala speakers.

Another interesting fact is that his digital is much worse than his analog. This is despite the use of an Aesthetix Romulus CD player which I also use. My experience has been that analog can sound acceptable with unsophisticated cable but digital is much more sensitive to cable choice.

[Msegal]

Mr. Gabriel,


Thank you for taking the time to clarify my misunderstanding.

You are certainly a gentleman and I am glad you have chosen your vocation to all our benefit.

If your travels ever find you in Fargo, North Dakota I would love to buy you a drink and discuss quantum physics or anything else! :-D

Mike Segal

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by Msegal

Mr. Gabriel,

Thank you for taking the time to clarify my misunderstanding.

You are certainly a gentleman and I am glad you have chosen your vocation to all our benefit.

If your travels ever find you in Fargo, North Dakota I would love to buy you a drink and discuss quantum physics or anything else! :-D

Mike Segal

Thank you Mike. It is a pleasure to answer thoughtful questions from sincere people.

cg