Thoughts on new production 12AX7 tubes

[prepress]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Charles.......You can read other peoples opinions until the cows come home or you can buy a couple different sets of tubes and make your own decision on how they sound to you with your gear. Tubes are circuit dependent, so one person saying they are warm, or bright, or neutral, or lush, or whatever is attempting to describe their reaction in their equipment. Will the same tube(s) in a different piece of equipment sound the same? The answer is most likely no.

I have rolled 12AX7's and 12AT7 tubes from any number of manufacturers, some reissues, some NOS from the 50's and 60's. I have used Mullards( reissue and NOS including military versions), Philips JAN, Tung-Sol and Tung-Sol gold pin, Telefunken, Siemens, RCA, and Genalex original NOS and Gold Lion reissue. Each manufacturer brought a particular sonic signature to the performance, some subtle differences and some not so subtle differences. These tubes often sounded different in power amps than they sounded in preamps.

The point I am trying to get across is, talking and reading about tubes and their influences on sound only whets the pallet but will never satisfy the taste buds until you actually take a bite. There is no perfect tube any more than there is a perfect audio component. Certainly some sound better than others and some sound different than others, but only you can make the final decision with your components by actually listening to the tubes of your choice. This is an area where procrastination and "research" will not represent the absolute truth. Take the plunge and discover tube rolling for yourself.

That's about what I came to, having thought about it more after my post and doing some more digging. The purpose of my research (as always) is to look for direction, but that's been difficult to come by; reviews conflict or are incomplete (for my purposes anyway). So I instead look for consistent patterns in the available commentary, ignoring the seeming conflicting statements, understanding there are different situations. As a result, I'm probably going to start with Mullards (my initial thought). Gold Lions are almost universally praised so they'd be an easy buy, though a bit more than I want to spend right now, at least in any bulk. I have reached out to vintage_tube but haven't heard back from him on the GLs. I don't have the C2300 yet anyway; it's perhaps another two weeks off, depending upon how the TV stand situation goes, so this is all looking ahead and trying to be ready.

[jdandy]

Charles.......Sometimes Bob (vintage_tube) is out of town for extended assignments. He'll catch up with you I'm sure.

[prepress]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Charles.......Sometimes Bob (vintage_tube) is out of town for extended assignments. He'll catch up with you I'm sure.

He mentioned that in his last PM, a little over a week ago. He also said he may be out of GLs and have to replenish.

[ronenash]

There are some very good current production 12ax7 tubes. Gold Lion and Tung-Sol come to mind. The NOS tubes can be a hit and miss experience and experimenting is costly.

[bakerman]

Originally Posted by prepress

You're saying the GLs are clearer/cleaner sounding than the Mullards or Tung-Sols in your system?

I have been researching tubes and it is a bit confusing to me, seeing sometimes apparently contradictory information. The dealer from whom I bought a C2300 also owns one, and offered that GLs were very good, and added some warmth; Mullards and Tung-Sols are more neutral, he says. But reading around I see Tung-Sols emphasize high and low frequencies, they're warm; Mullards are smooth (broad consensus on that), with surprising accuracy and detail (magic words to me), lush-sounding, etc.

Also many reviews are of the tubes in guitar amps; some mention hi-fi applications as well. I extrapolate some of the guitar reviews to hi-fi when such isn't stated specifically. I want to come to a solid decision, not close my eyes and stab (easy to do with all the choices). And need to watch the wallet in the process.

I do think the GL's are clearer sounding than both the Tung-Sols and the Mullards. The GL's seem to have a sparkle to the higher frequency which may be what makes them sound clearer. I find the Tung-Sols and the Mullards very close in sound quality. When I change tubes I don't hear a definite change/difference in sound but after listening for a few days I can hear the differences so depending on your system there may or may not be a huge change in sound quality. I agree with Dan that a good thing to do would be to buy a couple different types and try them out. They aren't so expensive, like NOS tubes, that it will break the bank. Then you can decide what you like best and have an extra set for back up.

I think it's harder with new production tubes to put name on them in terms of sound quality. I find that NOS RCA, Mullard & Tung-Sol are warm and smooth but maybe at the expense of some detail. They are a rich sounding tube to me. On the other hand tubes like Telefunken and Siemens are more precise and lean but less warm. I find that new production tubes these days sound similar to one another with small differences in sound qualities.

Don't rely on reviews when the amps used are guitar amps. I have found that they are totally different animals. I have a '73 Deluxe Reverb that I will only use NOS tubes in. They give me a warm, rich creamy sound that I like for guitar playing where new production tubes sound harsh. Musicians talk about tone and NOS tubes are where it's at for this application. There isn't as big a difference in sound/tone when I've tried different tubes, whether NOS or new, in my hi-fi gear.

Hope this helps...

[DonBattles]

Since I don't have tube gear any longer I've not chimed, also I'm not a tube veteran. But I can tell you what I liked and and didn't. In my McIntosh C220 and MC 240 NOS RCA black plates were my hands down favorites. For new production 12AX7s, I tried Tung Sol, Gold Lion, Mullard, and JJ. In the MC240 I ended up liking the Gold Lions best, in the C220 the Tung Sol gold pins sounded best on the phono stage. Point is I think you have to give them all a try. Especially because only you know what sounds good to you.

[prepress]

Originally Posted by bakerman

I do think the GL's are clearer sounding than both the Tung-Sols and the Mullards. The GL's seem to have a sparkle to the higher frequency which may be what makes them sound clearer. I find the Tung-Sols and the Mullards very close in sound quality. When I change tubes I don't hear a definite change/difference in sound but after listening for a few days I can hear the differences so depending on your system there may or may not be a huge change in sound quality. I agree with Dan that a good thing to do would be to buy a couple different types and try them out. They aren't so expensive, like NOS tubes, that it will break the bank. Then you can decide what you like best and have an extra set for back up.

I think it's harder with new production tubes to put name on them in terms of sound quality. I find that NOS RCA, Mullard & Tung-Sol are warm and smooth but maybe at the expense of some detail. They are a rich sounding tube to me. On the other hand tubes like Telefunken and Siemens are more precise and lean but less warm. I find that new production tubes these days sound similar to one another with small differences in sound qualities.

Don't rely on reviews when the amps used are guitar amps. I have found that they are totally different animals. I have a '73 Deluxe Reverb that I will only use NOS tubes in. They give me a warm, rich creamy sound that I like for guitar playing where new production tubes sound harsh. Musicians talk about tone and NOS tubes are where it's at for this application. There isn't as big a difference in sound/tone when I've tried different tubes, whether NOS or new, in my hi-fi gear.

Hope this helps...

Actually, it does. Being wary of the guitar amp-only reviews, I went back to some of the reviews and focused on those which specified audio applications also and that reduced the pool. I have a plan to order a couple of brands now (probably tomorrow from Tube Depot, to get that 10% off), and when vintage_tube is available and has them, I'll perhaps get a few GLs. That would give me a more than sufficient total of 3 brands. Your comments have helped firm up my ideas.

[prepress]

Originally Posted by DonBattles

Since I don't have tube gear any longer I've not chimed, also I'm not a tube veteran. But I can tell you what I liked and and didn't. In my McIntosh C220 and MC 240 NOS RCA black plates were my hands down favorites. For new production 12AX7s, I tried Tung Sol, Gold Lion, Mullard, and JJ. In the MC240 I ended up liking the Gold Lions best, in the C220 the Tung Sol gold pins sounded best on the phono stage. Point is I think you have to give them all a try. Especially because only you know what sounds good to you.

This is part of what I was talking about before. One review mentioned Tung Sols as perhaps not good in phono stages because of noise, which suggests an opposite tack to what you've said. That kind of conflict in comments is where it got confusing to a certified tube neophyte such as I and even had me questioning (albeit briefly) going over to the "dark side." But I think AA experience in general is pretty reliable; I ordered a C2300 based on it. So thanks for your perspective.

The Tube Store has two C2300 packages, one with 6 GLs (premium package) and one with the Preferred Series (upgrade package). The Preferred tubes are a re-creation of the 60s Mullards. Package price is the same as ordering the tubes individually, so I don't see the difference. The Preferred tubes carry a 6-month warranty, which is nice, and are exclusive to the Tube Store. Maybe I'll consider them too.