Telefunken ECC83/12AX7 Smooth Plate Experiences?

[Mendel]

Originally Posted by esteban

I just acquired a pair of Telefunken's ECC83/12AX7 Smooth Plate (NOS, with the "diamond" mark at the bottom) to replace the stock 12AX7's in my Prima Luna DiaLogue One. Second time rolling this type of tube in the amp. My only prior experience was a pair of Gold Lion's ECC83. Did not care for them at all and they were actually microphonic, so I returned them.

First impressions after only 3 or 4 hours with the Telefunkens: an overall sweeter and transparent midrange, yet a colder, more analytically revealing overall presentation that seems to be lacking a little bit of "punch" and vibrancy in the lower registries. Ironically, I am hearing plenty of notes and details in familiar recordings that I had never heard before, specially upper bass notes. But there's a certain "liveliness" and depth that I am now missing.

In other words, it seems I sacrificed a little warmth in favor of more detail and tighter (but less "feel-it-in-the-chest") bass. Still pondering if I have gone backwards, forward, or simply side-ways.

Overall, I think I (again) prefer the stock Prima Luna tubes (they seem to invite me to just listen and listen for hours) yet I understand that the Telefunken's are very much sought after and belong to the crème de la crème of NOS tubes. I realize the sound will be amplifier-dependent, and it would be pointless to generalize (different ears, different tastes and priorities, etc.), but I was just curious if any of you had any experiences with the Telefunken tubes that you'd care to share...

Hi Esteban:
Your description of the Teles is pretty much spot on. You did not get bad or weak tubes, that's the way Teles sound in every amp I have heard them in. Not my cup of tea and obviously not yours either.
Don't give up on rolling, the stock Chinese tubes in the Prima Luna are OK but can be much improved on. Given your sonic descriptions, I suggest you try the following if you can:
RCA 12ax7 blackplates
Raytheon 12ax7 blackplate
Sylvania 5751 (grey or black plate, triple mica)
GE , Raytheon or RCA 5751.
Amperex I65 code ( often "bugleboy" logo but also phillips,valvo or miniwatt)
Unfortunately you will not know what is best for you until you hear it. But your amp is good enough to make finding out worthwhile. Enjoy the roll.

[esteban]

Thank you, Mendel, for the suggestions. Much appreciated!

[MyPal]

Esteban...Don't give up on the Telefunkens! It may be difficult & expensive to find the king of the 12AX7, the TFK ESS803s frame grid gold pin. So, how about giving the Telsa E83CC equivalent a try. The vintage preceding the JJ takeover were made in Czechoslovakia (factory 32) in the 60s (gold writing no32 with/without military crossed swords) & 70s (white writing No32 with/without gold swords). Gold writing gold swords are highly sort after. Both eras were made on the exact same Telefunken equipment that was used to make the rare German TFK ECC803S. These are a genuine copy & are of a very close spec. White labels can be found readily for approx. 1/8th of the price of an ECC803S.

I currently have these in the McIntosh C1000T phono stage & will soon be move them to the line stage to make way for the king of all 12AX7 NOS which are on their way from the Herr who sold a pair to me. They are the most detailed 12AX7 I have rolled & by golly their bottom end knocks your socks off!

I can't say how they will behave in your Prima Luna DiaLogue One, but for the price, worth a roll. You will have no problem selling a matched pair if they don't work for your system.

Be wary of fakes. There are a few things to look out for. Mainly, these Teslas have a flat glass top not a rounded top like the JJs.

Siemens also did an E83CC frame grid gold pin. It is extremely rare. The Siemens triple mica is also said to be in this league.

[Whart]

Originally Posted by Joe Appierto

What you find to be the most satisfying all depends on the circuit you're using the tube in, the associated system and your personal tastes. As a good rue of thumb, you may find the following matrix from Tube World pretty helpful:




This isn't a plug for Tube World but I find his web site to contain a lot of useful information and the times I have purchased from Brendan, I've been satisfied. Delving into NOS tubes can be a very expensive proposition and the more you know going in, the better off you are.

Also, as was pointed out in previous posts, some contemporary designs voiced around current production tubes may sound their best using them.

I've been buying almost all my tubes from him for years- i trust him, he knows what he's doing, is a no BS guy and will take tubes back. I've gotten all sorts of tubes from Brendan, from small triodes, to the telephony tubes in my Allnic, to vintage rectifiers. Given the misinformation about tubes and how they were branded back in the day (e.g.mullard E810f telephony tubes which say 'made in great britain' on the glass were made by amperex in the us), you can't operate on faith here; this example wasn't a counterfeit, it was just how the tube companies 'rolled' back in the day by making stuff for each other under various brand names.
for what it's worth, i discovered that a mullard E810f and Siemens E810f were actually the same tube, made by phillips in holland. Just sayin.
You need somebody that knows this stuff, especially if you border off the track of the well-known, most common tubes. And then, there are modern counterfeits.
Which is a whole other issue.
I just got the DR version of the 6H30 for my line stage and had the manufacturer supply them, given the 'misbranding', if not outright fakery of these tubes today.

[Whart]

Originally Posted by Mendel

Hi Esteban:
Your description of the Teles is pretty much spot on. You did not get bad or weak tubes, that's the way Teles sound in every amp I have heard them in. Not my cup of tea and obviously not yours either.
Don't give up on rolling, the stock Chinese tubes in the Prima Luna are OK but can be much improved on. Given your sonic descriptions, I suggest you try the following if you can:
RCA 12ax7 blackplates
Raytheon 12ax7 blackplate
Sylvania 5751 (grey or black plate, triple mica)
GE , Raytheon or RCA 5751.
Amperex I65 code ( often "bugleboy" logo but also phillips,valvo or miniwatt)
Unfortunately you will not know what is best for you until you hear it. But your amp is good enough to make finding out worthwhile. Enjoy the roll.

Mendel: you seem to be quite knowledgeable re tubes. What i find interesting here, and this is based on my experience with the 6dj8, is that the tele really had the goods in the Steelhead, and that Esteban's description of what he heard was, at least in 6dj8 world, much more characteristic of my experience with the NOS Siemens tube, very linear, but tending to the analytical, and lacked the warmth and imaging of the tele. So, aside from different tube type (and I'm making the assumption that the character of these tubes transcends the type and may be characteristic of the brand more generally), don't you think much depends on the ciruit?
I use a ribbed NOS 12A__ Tele in my Lamm SET amps and they are pretty wonderful.

[Mendel]

Originally Posted by Whart

Mendel: you seem to be quite knowledgeable re tubes. What i find interesting here, and this is based on my experience with the 6dj8, is that the tele really had the goods in the Steelhead, and that Esteban's description of what he heard was, at least in 6dj8 world, much more characteristic of my experience with the NOS Siemens tube, very linear, but tending to the analytical, and lacked the warmth and imaging of the tele. So, aside from different tube type (and I'm making the assumption that the character of these tubes transcends the type and may be characteristic of the brand more generally), don't you think much depends on the ciruit?
I use a ribbed NOS 12A__ Tele in my Lamm SET amps and they are pretty wonderful.

Hi Whart:
Much definitely depends on the circuit, but many people have described tele 12ax7s exactly like Esteban's description. There is a theory held by some that tele 12ax7s were made to sound as they do to alleviate the dark sounding caps and resistors found in many vintage amps and receivers, and many owners of Fisher or Scott equipment swear nothing else sounds better. Not sure if I buy this but it is out there.
I use 6DJ8 in my phono stage also and love the Telefunken--it sounds much warmer than their 12ax7, but still very quiet and detailed.
It depends on the circuit and the other tubes used, but also on the listeners preferences. One man's detail is another man's analytical and thin, warmth to one can be bloated or thick to another. There is no right or wrong, that's why tube equipment is great--you can tailor the sound to what you want.
Enjoy the roll!
PS--Thanks Esteban --keep trying different tubes. The worst that will happen is that you will build up a valuable stash to enjoy and later sell if you wish for a tidy profit. Quality tubes will be worth their weight in gold in the future.

[esteban]

Thank you, Whart, Mendel and MyPal. Lots of interesting, useful info in this thread. Like Mendel says, I did keep the Telefunkens, even though I am not currently using them in my amp. I'm glad to have options available in the event of a future amp upgrade. Will definitely keep all the recommendations listed above in mind!

[JRSBat]

Hi Esteban,

I just picked up a pair of NOS Telefunken 12AX7 long plates with red tips (not sure what the red tips mean) for my lowly Jolida 302BRC a couple days ago. Even with my low end amp, the increase in sound quality is huge. Your description of the Telefunken sound agrees with what I hear. However, I really like the extra detail and how very quiet they are. I can live with the decrease in warmth - to me it was a good trade off.

In comparison, I had purchased a couple of pricey NOS Tungsram 12AX7's five months ago to replace the Tung-Sol's that came with the amp. They had a much bigger soundstage and a great low end. They did not come close to the detail provided by the Telefunkens. I could have easily stayed with the Tungsrams but as with my luck in general, one tube died a few weeks after the 90 day warranty lapsed. I went to a different dealer. After discussing my system and my music preferences he suggested the Telefunkens. I am glad he did.

I had to replace the Tungsrams with the original Tung-Sol's until the new tubes arrived. The Tungsrams had ruined me. I tried to listen to the Tung-Sols for an hour or so and decided to turn off the amp until the Telefunkens arrived a few days later. I couldn't go back.

The dealer has two more of the Telefunkens. I am debating whether to get them while I can or just try something different when these tubes die.

[Whart]

My recollection is that the painted tips were done by a couple of suppliers back in the day to reflect tube selection for medical equipment. These were supposed to denote a very high grade example of the tube. I've had some, and frankly can't tell the difference in my amps between them and an unpainted tip NOS ribbed tele. I'd also be a ilttle wary given how easy it is to fake those, unless you buy from a very reliable supplier.

[JRSBat]

Originally Posted by Whart

My recollection is that the painted tips were done by a couple of suppliers back in the day to reflect tube selection for medical equipment. These were supposed to denote a very high grade example of the tube. I've had some, and frankly can't tell the difference in my amps between them and an unpainted tip NOS ribbed tele. I'd also be a ilttle wary given how easy it is to fake those, unless you buy from a very reliable supplier.

Thanks for the info. These are the only Telefunkens I have used so I cannot compare them to the clear tip versions. They are extremely quiet - much quieter than the Tungsrams I bought earlier in the year.

I think I got them at a reliable source. I bought them from Greg Beron at United Home Audio. Greg has a lot of experience with Jolida products so I thought he would be a good resource when upgrading my Jolida's tubes.

Greg said he has collected quite a variety of the best tubes that were ever made. He listened to me when I described the music I like and what type of sound detail I wanted. He did a great job matching me up with the right tubes. When he sold them to me he only mentioned they were the long plate version. He did not mention they had the red tips. I just noticed the red tips as I installed them.