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  #41  
Old 03-17-2017, 10:10 PM
birdland birdland is offline
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INVERT is definitely not stuck on. I can toggle it with the remote. The same is true with MUTE.
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Pre-amp/amp Audio Research REF 5SE, Audio Research REF 150, Martin Logan SL3s, Shunyata Research power cords throughout
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  #42  
Old 03-17-2017, 10:45 PM
2fastdriving 2fastdriving is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdland View Post
INVERT is definitely not stuck on. I can toggle it with the remote. The same is true with MUTE.
You said the unit is not broken in, yet it's got broken buttons? I'm a little confused by that. I don't think I've ever pushed the invert button in my life. I'm also surprised that the soundstage isn't much bigger. Everything else sounds about right I think once you get used to it you will never look back.
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  #43  
Old 03-17-2017, 11:25 PM
birdland birdland is offline
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OK bad choice of words. Not feeling well due to messed up shoulder and neck which is so bad it is making me noxious. I meant the unit is not even burned in. I will have to discuss the button issue with the seller and Audio Research.

Well, not sure about the soundstage size. Keep in mind that the 'room' the stereo is in is not a normal room with 4 walls. It is a loft. There is a wall on the left side so the left speaker sees a wall. There is no wall to speak of on the right side. The back wall (that is, the wall behind the listener) is only 3 feet tall. Below are the dining room and living room. I may have to change the speaker placement slightly due to the tighter bass and extended highs.

I know how loud I can play the stereo so it isn't affected by the various reflections I have in the vast space. Putting shutters on the windows helped a lot. Also, I really do not like my music really loud anyway.
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Digital W4S DAC-2v2SE, W4S Recovery powered by Uptone Audio LPS-1, OPPO BDP-105; Office: iFi micro iDAC2 Home Office: iFi nano iDSD with iPurifier2
Analog Rega Planar 2 (original) heavily modified; Benz Micro Ace; Aesthetix Rhea phono pre-amp
Pre-amp/amp Audio Research REF 5SE, Audio Research REF 150, Martin Logan SL3s, Shunyata Research power cords throughout

Last edited by birdland; 03-17-2017 at 11:39 PM.
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  #44  
Old 03-18-2017, 09:45 AM
Mikado463 Mikado463 is offline
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birdland, no doubt your room anomalies have an effect on your soundstage. As for your new(to you) pre not being 'burned in' after 200 hrs, I think your trying to put way too much audiofool logic into that one.

You have obviously detected a difference between the two pre's and appears initially your mind (not your ears) is telling you something ...........
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  #45  
Old 03-18-2017, 11:17 AM
Randy Myers Randy Myers is offline
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My system is also in a loft. Fortunately the two "open" walls (3 foot high walls) are opposite each other. I have been able to position the system so that both open walls are on the sides, left and right of the system. It is amazing how much more open and wide the sound stage is with this setup then when I had my back to one of the short walls and the system backed up to the other. The guys in my audio club were quite surprised in how well this worked with the system.

It is too bad that your loft does not allow for this type of arrangement.
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  #46  
Old 03-18-2017, 12:30 PM
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The Lost Bears The Lost Bears is offline
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The difference between the Ref 5se and LS25 mk1 should be significant at first listen. I owned an LS25 mk2 for many years and the difference is huge. When I bought the LS25 mk2 years ago I spent a lot of time comparing it to the mk1. So I am also familiar with that preamp. Thee two preamps should not even be close. If you are familiar with the room, it should be a moot point for the comparison.

The broken buttons concern me. The are right next to each other and it makes me wonder if more was damaged. I assume this happened during shipping. I would send it back to ARC and havethe buttons fixed and it completely checked out.

Why did you feel the need to replace the tubes after only 200 hours? And you know that you can easily reset the counter by pressing the button on the back of the display. So I would not rely on the counter for total hours. New tubes will have a big affect on the sound. But it should still be clear how much better the Ref 5se is.

As with all tube preamps, you need to let it warm up for 15 to 20 minutes before listening. The sound will continue to improve for the next hour or so.
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  #47  
Old 03-18-2017, 03:35 PM
birdland birdland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
birdland, no doubt your room anomalies have an effect on your soundstage. As for your new(to you) pre not being 'burned in' after 200 hrs, I think your trying to put way too much audiofool logic into that one.

You have obviously detected a difference between the two pre's and appears initially your mind (not your ears) is telling you something ...........
And what exactly would that be?

The interaction between a stereo in my loft and the 'room' dynamics are very complicated and any difference can subtly change how the stereo sounds. I have tuned my LS25 Mk I and 2 VT100s over a number of years so I can get as much as possible out of them in the loft.
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Digital W4S DAC-2v2SE, W4S Recovery powered by Uptone Audio LPS-1, OPPO BDP-105; Office: iFi micro iDAC2 Home Office: iFi nano iDSD with iPurifier2
Analog Rega Planar 2 (original) heavily modified; Benz Micro Ace; Aesthetix Rhea phono pre-amp
Pre-amp/amp Audio Research REF 5SE, Audio Research REF 150, Martin Logan SL3s, Shunyata Research power cords throughout
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  #48  
Old 03-18-2017, 03:38 PM
birdland birdland is offline
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Randy - yes, it is really too bad. I often thought about making a portable wall that I could place on the right side to at least balance the room and prevent the late reflection from the outside wall many feet away but I never got around to it.

I can understand how two open walls would open up the sound. Of course, some speakers would not like that scenario.
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Digital W4S DAC-2v2SE, W4S Recovery powered by Uptone Audio LPS-1, OPPO BDP-105; Office: iFi micro iDAC2 Home Office: iFi nano iDSD with iPurifier2
Analog Rega Planar 2 (original) heavily modified; Benz Micro Ace; Aesthetix Rhea phono pre-amp
Pre-amp/amp Audio Research REF 5SE, Audio Research REF 150, Martin Logan SL3s, Shunyata Research power cords throughout
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  #49  
Old 03-18-2017, 04:11 PM
birdland birdland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lost Bears View Post
The difference between the Ref 5se and LS25 mk1 should be significant at first listen. I owned an LS25 mk2 for many years and the difference is huge. When I bought the LS25 mk2 years ago I spent a lot of time comparing it to the mk1. So I am also familiar with that preamp. Thee two preamps should not even be close. If you are familiar with the room, it should be a moot point for the comparison.
Yes, the differences should be immediately apparent. However, I am also very wary of change and a difference in how a specific frequency range severely affects me because I become fixated on that particular aspect of the sound. I have to listen for awhile before I can relax enough to allow my brain to actually pay attention to the entire sound landscape. I know this so it took hours for me to get an idea of what is going on because 1) it is a new pre-amp, 2) it has new tubes, 3) my brain has to go through its burn-in time.

We all listen differently. Big, taught bass always messes up my appreciation of music when it is new. Once, my brain gets used to it, it begins to hear the other differences.

Quote:
The broken buttons concern me. The are right next to each other and it makes me wonder if more was damaged. I assume this happened during shipping. I would send it back to ARC and havethe buttons fixed and it completely checked out.
Yes, this concerns me as well. I can understand that the seller may have never used the buttons. I'm not sure how the pre-amp could have been damaged in shipment as it was packed in the original box with all packaging in place. The box was in good shape. Of course, the box could have been dropped.

This morning the seller sent me an note explainging that he is trying to figure out how use his warranty to get the button issue fixed.

Last night, I pushed hard with my finger on the INVERT button and it finally moved and then I could change the phase via the front panel. I did the same thing with the MUTE button and eventually that moved as well. However, now the MUTE button doesn't do anything and the INVERT button turns MUTE on and off.

I'll have to see what the buttons do today.

Quote:
Why did you feel the need to replace the tubes after only 200 hours? And you know that you can easily reset the counter by pressing the button on the back of the display. So I would not rely on the counter for total hours. New tubes will have a big affect on the sound. But it should still be clear how much better the Ref 5se is.

As with all tube preamps, you need to let it warm up for 15 to 20 minutes before listening. The sound will continue to improve for the next hour or so.
The seller said that some of the 6H30 tubes had developed noise issues. He sent me all of the new tubes plus the 'old' 6550WE tube. The new tubes are from ARC as he stated they were. So far, I have no reason to doubt what the seller is telling me. He is very concerned about the buttons.

Now that I've had some time with the REF 5SE, there is a significant difference between it and the LS25. It takes me awhile but I eventually get there.

Last night my wife and I watched a movie, 2 channel - not a multi-channel guy. I have never heard a movie sound the way it did last night. I had not played a movie through the stereo since I replaced the VT100s with the REF 150 so there are two changes but still it was just amazing.

The more I listen to the REF 5SE the more I realize what a special piece of equipment it is.

I'm just lucky that my wife is the way she is. We've had the VT100s and LS25 for years. When I mentioned that it would be nice to upgrade the 2 VT100s to a single REF 150, she said 'get what you want'. When I said that I thought the REF 5SE would be better, I got the same statement. Yesterday, I listened for about 2 hours before I asked my wife to come up to listen in the loft. She was sitting down in the dining room or living room and she could tell that things were better. She listened to a few tracks and said, so why did it take you 2 hours to figure out that the new pre-amp is better?
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Digital W4S DAC-2v2SE, W4S Recovery powered by Uptone Audio LPS-1, OPPO BDP-105; Office: iFi micro iDAC2 Home Office: iFi nano iDSD with iPurifier2
Analog Rega Planar 2 (original) heavily modified; Benz Micro Ace; Aesthetix Rhea phono pre-amp
Pre-amp/amp Audio Research REF 5SE, Audio Research REF 150, Martin Logan SL3s, Shunyata Research power cords throughout
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  #50  
Old 03-18-2017, 04:44 PM
Mikado463 Mikado463 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdland View Post
And what exactly would that be?
bird, I think your post (#39) pretty much sums it up .........
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